Further Light and Knowledge

I have a MS in Molecular Biology and have been bothered by many of the church leadership's stance on evolution. It also bothers me that so many members will not even examine evolution or the origin of church doctrine because McKonkie and Packer say, essentially, intellectualism will lead you astray.

This in combination with an honest examination of the church's history has led me to be bothered by the memberships' blind faith in church leadership.

I found an interesting new book that takes a completely new approach to church history. I think many here will find it a fascinating read. "Passing the Heavenly Gift" by Denver Snuffer. http://www.amazon.com/Passing-Heavenly- ... 010&sr=8-1

Denver is an active member, though his examination of church history is surprisingly thorough. He is no apologist and makes no excuses for some of the decisions the leadership of the church has made. And it does not have an "anti" feel to it. (I have never really appreciated "anti" materials, in the sense that the tone is usually not constructive. I have no problem with arguing, I am an attorney, but arguing for the sake for destroying someone's beliefs rather than having an respectful discussion has never interested me.)

Anyway, I think this approach to Mormon history is definitely unconventional (to active Mormons) and very interesting.

Perhaps, however . . .



In the general scope of things, it's just another book fail. The author is clearly incapable of dealing with reality and likes to flirt with facts and concepts that are true yet still remain outside his realm defining what he believes is acceptable to publicly and fully acknowledge and embrace. I have no respect for people who capitalize on their ability to project an image of playing on both sides. I yield no credibility, appreciation or sympathy whatsoever for those types.




BTW, I'm just up the road from GA-Tech and I used to work with some of their grad students (ME, EE & CE) for three years at my school before the money for that program ran out.

And, welcome to Flak!

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It's good to talk about these things and to sort out the messed up mindfuck we were in.
- SIMS

"...it's just another book fail. The author is clearly incapable of dealing with reality ..."

Not sure how you can say that without reading his book.

Denver has a unique perceptive as he has had an audience with Jesus Christ on multiple occasions, and has written about it in "The Second Comforter: Conversing with the Lord Through the Veil." http://www.amazon.com/Second-Comforter- ... 0974015873

What is interesting about "Passing the Heavenly Gift" is that his ultimate conclusion is that the COJCLDS is in a state of apostasy. He discusses prophecies in the D&C and Book of Mormon that foretell this. When read plainly it is clear that the COJCLDS would lose the fullness of the gospel. I am actually surprised no one else has seen this before, or at least been vocal or clear about it.

If the church is in a state of apostasy, like the Israelites, that explains largely why the church is in such a bad shape. He discusses his dislike for the near worship of general authorities and the correlation committee.

The reason he encourages people to remain active, is that the church still does administer the ordinances necessary to return to Christ's presence-in this life. He bares person witness to that. Likewise, even when the Isrealites were in a state of apostasy, they still administered the ordinances in the temple. Even Jesus respected and honored the organize priesthood of his day, that doesn't mean he acknowledged them as "the true church".


"BTW, I'm just up the road from GA-Tech."

Great football season. Unbelievable rushing. Much more exciting the BYU or Utah.

Thank you for this post. This is EXACTLY how I see it. I believe in the REAL gospel of Jesus Christ and its savings ordinances, and that the "church" does administer these, but it has fallen into apostacy. That is why I stay.

I will definitely order this book. Maybe my TBM DH will actually read it.

Thanks again.

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"I love all the bretheren, but I love some a hell of a lot more than I do others." - J. Golden Kimball

It's like you're in The Church of ANTI-CHRIST of Latter-day Scribes and Pharisees.

Huh? Is this your testimony or his? I'm supposed to believe that his perspective is better because he "has had an audience with Jesus Christ" I don't believe that bullshit anymore than I believe that the church leaders have had an audience with "Jesus Christ" It just sounds like he is trying to build up his own following for another offshoot from the mainstream church, go figure mormons would fall for it!

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"We shouldn't be mad at Chef for leaving us, We should be mad at that fruity little club for scrambling his brains"

This is where I zone out.

There is nothing 'unique' about this 'perceptive'[sic]. What he's now doing is attempting to set himself up as a modern day Joseph Smith. I don't buy it. And truthfully, I'm not sure that many at FLAK will buy it either.

If this person wants to claim to have conversed with a mythical creation, that's fine. If this person wants convince people that this happened, they need to offer tangible, verifiable, empirical proof of this.

For all any one here knows, I've conversed face to face with Zeus, Apollo, Jupiter, Odin, and Ra and they have all told me that this Jesus Christ character is just a fabrication. I could even go as far as spinning a very convincing tale out of it, then writing a book and publishing it.

The fact is, what Denver Snuffer offers is nothing more than the retelling of a myth or a fairy tale.

Harsh? Perhaps. But I'm not one to beat around the bush when I smell bullshit.

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"To those seaching for truth - not the truth of dogma and darkness but the truth brought by reason, search, examination, and inquiry, discipline is required. For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope." - Thomas Edison

First he says this.


Then he says this.


I don't get it. How do they not contradict each other? How can you be in an active state of apostasy and still be able to perform necessary ordinances for salvation? That's like saying "I'm a vegan, but I eat meat."

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I'm not sorry, I like to get laid. --Mercury

I took roughly 1/3 of my available vacation for the year to chase 12- and 13-year old boys through the woods. --Mcarp

"Is this your testimony or his?"

Haha, No I have no testimony of him or any other man.

"I don't believe that bullshit anymore than I believe that the church leaders have had an audience with "Jesus Christ"

The difference between him and the church leaders is that the church leaders do not even say they have seen Christ. Yes, it's implied, but they never say it. Denver discusses in his book that the original apostles were charged to seek Christ. However, over time, so few had actually seen him, the apostles don't even claim this as one of their duties anymore. They now claim they are some ambiguous "special witness". This supports the idea the COJCOLDS is in a state of apostasy.

To me, if someone claims to have been visited by Christ, or anything for that matter that might have an impact on me, I will at least entertain the idea. Usually, a claim like this can be quickly dismissed because it's easily observed that they are nuts or have an agenda.

I haven't found anything that would discredit Denver.

"There is nothing 'unique' about this "

Really? How many people in 2011 are actually making that claim, EXPLICITLY?

"I don't buy it. And truthfully, I'm not sure that many at FLAK will buy it either."

I didn't think many would, which was why the original posting was on the "Church History Book" that he wrote, not his testimony of Christ. His book is a very thoughtful, educated, well researched criticism of the COJCOLDS citing D&C and BoM for the church's apostasy. I figured many FLAKs would love it. I thought it would interest some in sharing with their family members/friends how Christ himself prophecies of the LDS's apostasy in 3 Nephi 16 and D&C 124.

You may still think it's all a sham, fine. But understanding "Passing the Heavenly Gift" will humble TBMs whether it's a sham or not.

As for building up a following, if that is his intent, he has done a terrible job. He donates all the money from his books so that he receives no profit from them. He regularly turns down opportunities to speak. And encourages people to stay in the LDS church. So I doubt he's "building a movement."

He has written 9 books. That takes a lot of time. He has received no money and no fame. That is a credible foundation upon which to investigate--considering his claim. Decide for yourself.

The ultimate purpose of his books are to encourage people to seek Christ, regardless what you think of the church.

First, there are degrees of apostasy. Israel was in a state of apostasy. They did not have the higher priesthood and many truths, they DID HAVE authority to administer the ordinances of the temple. Christ never disputed this. He acknowledged the Priestly authority of the time, even though they lacked the fullness.

POWER in the priesthood is DIFFERENT than AUTHORITY in the priesthood, the COJCOLDS teaches that they are synonymous, they are not. One may have authority but not power, "thus many are called, but few are chosen....." Lacking power is a state of apostasy.

Even though Israel lacked the fullness and were in a state of apostasy, there were some who still were able to commune and talk with God (Isaiah, Samuel, Daniel, etc.). Even thought the LDS church is in a state of apostasy, they do not have the fullness, they still have the authority to administer the ordinances. But this collective apostasy is no impediment to us being able to receive Christ now.

What is striking is the shared pride between Israel and the LDS church for being "chosen", yet they were both fallen. And you wondered why there are so many Isaiah chapters in the BoM.

Hrrrmmm... the Catholics don't have the authority to perform the ordinances notwithstanding the fact that they supposedly have an unbroken line from St. Peter because of the "Great Apostasy," so we need Joseph Smith (apparently), but now the church he founded is in a state of apostasy but yet they still have the authority to perform the ordinances.

Oh, whew... apparently there are degrees of apostasy wherein the POWER is lost but not the AUTHORITY, so I guess we are okay. Well, or maybe we need to follow Denver so that we can truly experience both the POWER and the AUTHORITY.

There are degrees of bullshit, too... and I'm smelling bullshit in spades in this thread. Personally, I think Christ-worship comes with a whole lot of baggage. I think it was a mistake for the Christians to keep the Old Testament baggage, and I would think someone who was in communication with God these days could do a lot better than keeping the New Testament baggage (apocalypticism, anyone?). Which is why when someone tells me they are in communication with God and they now possess the new and better (and TRUE) way of interpreting a bronze-age mythology, I just .



I thought it was because the BOM needed some filler and copying the KJV seemed to be something JS was pretty good at.

Um... yeah. No thanks. I was one of those Black or White mormons in that I think you can't have the "authority" without having the "power". If some bozo in an ice-cream truck pulls me over and tries to write me a ticket I'm going to kick his ass. If, however, a cop pulls me over and writes me a ticket I'm going to accept it because he has both the power and the authority to do so. (insert your argument about the laws of god being different than the laws of man) Bullshit. The laws of god are the laws of men cause they were written and created by men.

I find it easy to dismiss people who claim to have been visited by Christ (on one level or another) since history has proven that almost everyone who has claimed a personal visitation by the big mythical JC is usually in it for money, sex or power... or in Joseph Smith's case all three.

I think you're preaching to the wrong crowd. NOM might be a better place.

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I'm not sorry, I like to get laid. --Mercury

I took roughly 1/3 of my available vacation for the year to chase 12- and 13-year old boys through the woods. --Mcarp

"the Catholics don't have the authority to perform the ordinances notwithstanding the fact that they supposedly have an unbroken line from St. Peter"

Obviously even the authority was lost because they do not even administer the ordinances correctly, sprinkling baptism.

"If, however, a cop pulls me over and writes me a ticket I'm going to accept it because he has both the power and the authority to do so."

Suppose a cop pulls you over and cites you for running a red light, and there wasn't even an intersection. You go to court and the court dismisses the ticket. The cop had the authority to cite you, but he did not have power to make you pay because the charge was unjust. One can have authority and lack power.

Look, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything other than I thought "Passing the Heavenly Gift" was an interesting look at controversial Mormon history. I think the issues discussed in this book are intellectually honest-for a change, unlike the COJCOLDS's revisionist view of their history.

So basically the purpose of this book is to tell people that belong to a religion based entirely on a mythical person that they have apostatized from the foundation of their core religion, of which there are several offshoots that fall closer to the original foundation than the mainstream, which was based on an unsubstantiated claim that two mythical beings visited a 14 year-old boy to tell him that all of the other religions based on one of the mythical beings were corrupt because 1000 years before there were several councils convened where-which scholars evaluated texts written second and third hand accounts of said mythical being to determine which accounts to canonize and which accounts to discard, along with how to incorporate existing pagan beliefs into this newly formed religion in order to make it more appealing to general masses and thus help it spread faster and easier, never mind the fact that there are absolutely no first-hand accounts of anything the aforementioned mythical did in its supposed mortal life, if there even was one ... that yet another person has now spoken to the mythical being in question and this mythical being has stated, surprise of all surprises, that the first religion is just as wrong as all the other religions that have come before it? Huh. Didn't see that one coming. My, oh my, how history loves to repeat itself.

As for wondering why there are so many Isaiah chapters in the BoM, the answer to that is simple. It's called plagiarism. There's not an original idea to be found the BoM. Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery tried, but they failed miserably.

Sorry, GTR, but it's the same song and dance we've all heard before: All talk and no proof.

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"To those seaching for truth - not the truth of dogma and darkness but the truth brought by reason, search, examination, and inquiry, discipline is required. For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope." - Thomas Edison

Huh. So your definition of "intellectually honest" is stating that yet another person has had a vision from the Christ-myth who said that all other religions are wrong?

Could Denver have been any less original?

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"To those seaching for truth - not the truth of dogma and darkness but the truth brought by reason, search, examination, and inquiry, discipline is required. For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope." - Thomas Edison

BTW - GTR ...

I hope you didn't expect to come to FLAK looking for a sympathetic group ... the VAST majority of us are far beyond Mormonism in any way shape or form.

We also aren't fans of accepting feelings and emotions as proof of anything. Saul might have said "faith without works is dead", but knowledge without proof is opinion.

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"To those seaching for truth - not the truth of dogma and darkness but the truth brought by reason, search, examination, and inquiry, discipline is required. For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope." - Thomas Edison