Further Light and Knowledge

No one seems to want to talk about much these days, maybe this will bring some people out:

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/vie ... =1&t=23840

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/577 ... ehlin-lou/

The first post in each link is the same, by Dehlin. You can read what happened.

I, among others here, have been critical of Dehlin in the past. It does seem, however, that he's pulled off quite a little miracle (a tender mercy, if you will). The guy is supposed to be an apostate, according to apologists, yet he gets a GA(s?) to quash an alleged hit piece on him written by Greg Smith at FAIR. Huh, quite embarrassing and I think a huge defeat for the apologists.

The apologists are trying to deflect attention, calling Dehlin out for censorship (pot meet kettle) and denying the ad hominem attacks and bullying behavior of which Dehlin accuses them. This does not change the fact that apologists got fucking shut down by high-ranking leader(s) of their church while trying to critisize an apostate. If all this is indeed true, then I've gotta hand it to Dehlin, all these years of tip-toeing around the hard issues has paid off. Bravo.

However, one thing I noticed in all the back and forth-- Dehlin says he emailed Scott Gordon with a request and that Gordon did not respond. Gordon shows up and produced his response. I haven't seen Dehlin respond to that. (There are currently 25 pages of posts so I may have missed it.)

One other thing--why in the hell would a GA intervene on Dehlin's behalf. I may be struggling to understand that more than the fucking humiliated apologists themselves, though I doubt it.

I know many here may not be interested in the critics/apologists soap opera that transpires between MDD and MDB, but I find some of it pretty interesting.

disclaimer: I may be mixing up FAIR/FARMS/Maxwell Institute. I know there's some technical differences in these organizations, which I believe only exist to give them and the church plausible deniability when someone fucks up.

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He never said it would be worth it; He only said it would be easy.

Thanks for the links. I don't often read mormon boards anymore but I decided to read the discussion over on the MADD board. I stopped reading on page 6 when I saw this comment,



I couldn't stop laughing about how they want scrutiny, critical thinking, and examination of a random posters story and don't apply the same to their faith which perhaps has more than a few issues to tackle.

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Lead me not into tempation
I can find it myself

While I'm certainly not bored enough to read all these threads, I think the reason John got special treatment by a ga is the rockstar factor. John is very good at generating press. And the church doesn't want the bad press.

I thought Dehlin was still a member in good standing, no? Did I miss something?

Also, I think the church has become hyper aware of the fact that they are hemorrhaging young people and educated people, people who had served missions and gone to the temple. A kerfuckle with Dehlin does them absolutely NO good.

As far as I know, John does not have a temple recommend (which is how some define "good standing"), but he does attend church once or twice a month. He had a discussion with his bishop about delaying the baptism of his youngest, but there wasn't any "stop what you're doing" or threats, which is a pretty good thing, I think.

Ha - your language made me think this way:

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“Someone must have been telling lies about Joseph K., for without having done anything wrong, he was arrested one fine morning.”

LOL, after posting my comment I noticed the 'I don't often' phrase too. It's funny how a simple phrase like that has been taken over completely by a commercial.

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Lead me not into tempation
I can find it myself

I've read some of the thread, honestly I find myself struggling to have an opinion (this is rare for me).

It's true, the ad hominem attacks (a phrase I didn't know before reading mormon/post mormon boards) are over the top. But they also help many people to see the tactics of the LDS church. Instead of directly confronting anything, they discredit the source and go around the original argument.

For the one true church, they certainly don't have a lot of answers.

On the other hand, I don't really understand staying in the mormon church, staying active in the mormon church despite knowing everything that one can know about it. I understand keeping families together and marriages together, but the leadership of the LDS church has some immoral actions at times (prop. 8, the mall, blatant sexism, etc.) But to each their own...Is it worth staying in such an organization? Is it worth helping other people stay?

It's the intersection of knowledge about the leadership vs. knowledge about individual members. At what point are you supporting the leadership status quo, and at what point are you supporting individuals and their families?

Did the GA intervene because John is a member in good standing (on paper), theoretically? Why is Dehlin being protected from this type of criticism, but others not?

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my blog

Reading it is making my eyes cross without getting past the initial post. I admit, I have a short attention span. BUT what I do know about Dehlin after all these years is, whether he actively courts it or not, there is always all this Big Drama going on, wherein he is the innocent/savior figure and there are many evil-doers seeking his destruction. I grew weary of this storyline ages ago.

If you don't like shit, stay out of the pigpen.

Like ^^

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The apple cannot be stuck back on the Tree of Knowledge; once we begin to see, we are doomed and challenged to seek the strength to see more, not less. ~ Arthur Miller

Years ago, I was "friendly-flamed" for saying I didn't have any respect for the fence sitting crowd.

I understand the family, social and I would assume in some cases even economic connections to the organization. But what I don't understand are those who remain locked into Phase II, by choice:

Phase I --> TBM or so

Phase II --> Fact-based information leads to an acceptance: the organization lies

Phase III --> You reclaim total ownership of your mental behavior and recognize the dishonorable hypocrisy associated with continuing to support the organization. You realize that helping the organization is similar aiding and abetting a criminal so the only respectable action involves total separation from and complete disassociation with the deceitful entity.

Phase IV --> You begin to learn, or relearn, what's real and what's not. You embrace knowledge and growth. You learn how, stumbling at times, to truly think on your own. You embrace this new found joy of self-ownership that never previously existed (or was suppressed if you were a convert). Your joy of discovering the new life, the life you should have always had, may be scarred by years of totally dedicating your life to an organization that now you see throughout its own history, has been plagued with lies and deceit and you see how this trend continues today. You can now see how those who control the spin, those who continue to propagate the false messages, know exactly what they are doing and then you realize the enormous level at which this campaign engages in converting and then controlling the mind to maintain and increase incoming revenue.

You see the controlling behavior in realistic terms, propagated by a group of organized men who will do anything to promote their goals. You look back at your former life and see friends who, because of their organization-driven-mind-controlling-choices, begin to fade away, family members who sever ties. Then you look over at the large and spacious building, the organization, and realize the level of irony as previously forbidden truths reveal the cracks in the foundation, portions begin to crumble from the exquisite facade, a frail and dirty structure is revealed and the grief of wasting a portion of your life is dissipated by knowing you've discovered - and accepted - the reality and your new life is so much better than the old one.


And then you smile because . . . Captain Jack will get you high tonight and you're finally free.

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It's good to talk about these things and to sort out the messed up mindfuck we were in.
- SIMS

I'm just catching up on this whole kerfluffle. I'm not a huge fan of John Dehlin ... but I do find some of is work interesting. I haven't formed an opinion as of yet on this whole situation between the two of them.

As I'm reading the thread on MAD and on DCP's own blog, I do find it interesting that he implies and his cronies backup the idea that DCP doesn't engage in ad hominem attacks, yet he consistently refers to Dehlin as his "Stalker" and his "Malevolent Stalker" which in and of itself is an ad hominem fallacy. This consistent occurrence is very damaging, in my insignificant opinion, to DCP's credibility on that particular subject.

/continues reading

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"To those seaching for truth - not the truth of dogma and darkness but the truth brought by reason, search, examination, and inquiry, discipline is required. For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope." - Thomas Edison

Upon further reading:

DCP posted what appears to be the full text of the emails sent to him by JD. As I have no cause to conclude that he has altered the text of the emails, base my opinion on the conclusion that the emails are complete (aside from the names of GA's involved).

That said, I find nothing wrong with the initial email that JD sent. He emails everyone he believes might be involved and asked for clarification. IMO, he would have be more successful in his endeavor until he received a response from the any or all of the addressees. I'm not sure I see where this has happened. What I think I see is an email sent late on the evening of 03/25 and a second email from JD early in the AM on 03/26 that could be interpreted as threatening.

I also think I agree with the commentators that point out that adding the anonymous anecdotal references to interviewees expressing the idea that FAIR/FARMS/NMI contributed to their leaving the church can be interpreted as inflammatory and did nothing to further his goal in a positive way.

/continues reading

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"To those seaching for truth - not the truth of dogma and darkness but the truth brought by reason, search, examination, and inquiry, discipline is required. For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope." - Thomas Edison

This is a post that resounded with me:

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"To those seaching for truth - not the truth of dogma and darkness but the truth brought by reason, search, examination, and inquiry, discipline is required. For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope." - Thomas Edison

Yet more reading:

rameumptom posts


I reject this premise entirely for being incomplete and circular in nature.

There are numerous reasons that a person leaves the LDS church or lose their testimonies. Based on my own experience with leaving the church, I can tell you that I did the best I could to spiritually nurture my testimony. While the deacons quorum adviser, I spent hours each week preparing my lessons. I didn't just read the manual and teach based on that. I spent time reviewing the material and cross-referencing the objectives and critical points of the lesson with the standard works as well as literature found at the church's website.

While on his mission, my cousin would often speak of articles he read at FAIR in his letters home; illustrating one point or another in response to criticism he heard. I would read the articles in their entirety and think about them. Initially I found these articles to be well written. As I started to apply critical thinking skills, I started to develop a case of cognitive dissonance. Some of the articles felt circular in their reasoning. Others felt as though they were particularly harsh or critical of the author of one publication or another. In short, I started to recognize logical fallacies of several flavors. This didn't help relieve the cognitive dissonance I found. ( I have searched through the emails I have saved from his mission to see if I could find the particular articles he was referring to, but I can't seem to find them at this point. It has been 7 years since they were emailed to me.)

Toward the end, I found that I received no enjoyment in preparing and teaching the lessons from the Aaronic Priesthood manual and even some topics I found to be quite disturbing (the "Every Member a Missionary" lesson was quite off putting. Enough that I remember the feeling of disgust that I felt when I read through the manual ... 6 years later.)

At the end of the day I'm of the opinion that in my case it was my own attempts to spiritually nurture my testimony that lead to its eventual demise.

I, of course, can only speak for myself.

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"To those seaching for truth - not the truth of dogma and darkness but the truth brought by reason, search, examination, and inquiry, discipline is required. For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope." - Thomas Edison