"The So-Called Mountain Meadows Massacre"

capt jack · **Joined:** Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:05 pm **Posts:** 1484

Hat-tip to Beastie from mormondiscussions.com who reports on this letter to the editor in the Weekly Standard by none other the so-called professor of Islamic Studies at the so-called BYU (click here) .

Quote:

MALIGNING MORMONS

REGARDING FRED BARNES's profile of actor Jon Voight ("Hollywood Witness," September 3), apart from the overwhelming consensus of critics that September Dawn, in which Voight stars, is a pathetic excuse for a movie, there are several other points that should be made about its misrepresentation of history.

The so-called Mountain Meadows Massacre is in no substantial way parallel to the attacks of 9/11. Speaking as a professor of Islamic studies and Arabic at Brigham Young University, there is no real resemblance between Mormons, even in the nineteenth century, and adherents of Wahhabi Islam.

At least one of the pivotal and most damning statements put in the mouth of Brigham Young by the scriptwriter of September Dawn appears to have been entirely invented by an anti-Mormon just a few years ago. It is not only "the church" that denies Brigham Young's alleged role in ordering and masterminding the massacre; no credible professional historian appears to believe it either--for the clear and sufficient reason that there is no evidence to support the charge. In fact, there is considerable reason to reject it. September Dawn is a disgrace, a piece of shameless anti-Mormon propaganda. Fortunately, it appears destined to disappear without leaving much of a trace behind.

DANIEL PETERSON
Provo, Utah

Keep it up Danny boy; whatever you think about BY ordering the massacre, it was a massacre. That part isn't theory, conjecture, hyperbole.

Maybe I should start doing the same thing: The so-called Haun's Mill atrocity; the so-called murder of Joseph Smith; the so-called tragedy on the Sweetwater.

Why is everyone else's tragedy "so-called"? That's right, silly me, they play for Jesus' team and thus have every right to piss on any tragedy that is not their own.

MIBK · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:49 am

&t

capt jack wrote:

Hat-tip to Beastie from mormondiscussions.com who reports on this letter to the editor in the Weekly Standard by none other the so-called professor of Islamic Studies at the so-called BYU (click here) .

Quote:

MALIGNING MORMONS

REGARDING FRED BARNES's profile of actor Jon Voight ("Hollywood Witness," September 3), apart from the overwhelming consensus of critics that September Dawn, in which Voight stars, is a pathetic excuse for a movie, there are several other points that should be made about its misrepresentation of history.

The so-called Mountain Meadows Massacre is in no substantial way parallel to the attacks of 9/11. Speaking as a professor of Islamic studies and Arabic at Brigham Young University, there is no real resemblance between Mormons, even in the nineteenth century, and adherents of Wahhabi Islam.

At least one of the pivotal and most damning statements put in the mouth of Brigham Young by the scriptwriter of September Dawn appears to have been entirely invented by an anti-Mormon just a few years ago. It is not only "the church" that denies Brigham Young's alleged role in ordering and masterminding the massacre; no credible professional historian appears to believe it either--for the clear and sufficient reason that there is no evidence to support the charge. In fact, there is considerable reason to reject it. September Dawn is a disgrace, a piece of shameless anti-Mormon propaganda. Fortunately, it appears destined to disappear without leaving much of a trace behind.

DANIEL PETERSON
Provo, Utah

Keep it up Danny boy; whatever you think about BY ordering the massacre, it was a massacre. That part isn't theory, conjecture, hyperbole.

Maybe I should start doing the same thing: The so-called Haun's Mill atrocity; the so-called murder of Joseph Smith; the so-called tragedy on the Sweetwater.

Why is everyone else's tragedy ;so-called"? That's right, silly me, they play for Jesus' team and thus have every right to piss on any tragedy that is not their own.

After listening to Mayan Elephant on the latest Mormon Matters podcast, I also have to add that anyone who uses the term, "anti-mormon" to describe anything or anyone other than the radical street preacher types who foam at the mouth, they must have a delusional paranoid persecution complex.

Lincoln · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:54 am

capt jack wrote:

Hat-tip to Beastie from mormondiscussions.com who reports on this letter to the editor in the Weekly Standard by none other the so-called professor of Islamic Studies at the so-called BYU (click here) .

Quote:

MALIGNING MORMONS

REGARDING FRED BARNES's profile of actor Jon Voight ("Hollywood Witness," September 3), apart from the overwhelming consensus of critics that September Dawn, in which Voight stars, is a pathetic excuse for a movie, there are several other points that should be made about its misrepresentation of history.

The so-called Mountain Meadows Massacre is in no substantial way parallel to the attacks of 9/11. Speaking as a professor of Islamic studies and Arabic at Brigham Young University, there is no real resemblance between Mormons, even in the nineteenth century, and adherents of Wahhabi Islam.

At least one of the pivotal and most damning statements put in the mouth of Brigham Young by the scriptwriter of September Dawn appears to have been entirely invented by an anti-Mormon just a few years ago. It is not only "the church" that denies Brigham Young's alleged role in ordering and masterminding the massacre; no credible professional historian appears to believe it either--for the clear and sufficient reason that there is no evidence to support the charge. In fact, there is considerable reason to reject it. September Dawn is a disgrace, a piece of shameless anti-Mormon propaganda. Fortunately, it appears destined to disappear without leaving much of a trace behind.

DANIEL PETERSON
Provo, Utah

Keep it up Danny boy; whatever you think about BY ordering the massacre, it was a massacre. That part isn't theory, conjecture, hyperbole.

Maybe I should start doing the same thing: The so-called Haun's Mill atrocity; the so-called murder of Joseph Smith; the so-called tragedy on the Sweetwater.

Why is everyone else's tragedy "so-called"? That's right, silly me, they play for Jesus' team and thus have every right to piss on any tragedy that is not their own.

"So-Called?" "So-Called?" Other than the tired abuse of this word, Peterson has his facts wrong once again. If he'd leave wee willy winkie alone while writing, he might be able to focus his thoughts better.

Peterson. First of all. Fuck you. Second, the church leaders who led this massacre (I refuse to follow the church's new "perpetrators" label) namely Dame, Haight, Higbee, Lee, and Klingensmith carried out the order to kill these defenseless men, women, and children AFTER THEY HAD BLATANTLY LIED TO THEM PROMISING TO PROTECT THEM, FOR GOD'S SAKE. Then when Higbee gave the command "Do your do", you know Peterson, like the whole "Duty to God" award thingy, except this time they turned on the person they were escorting AND PUT A BULLET IN THEIR HEADS. The few people who ran off were caught and either bludgeoned to death, or their throats cut, or their heads were blown off. These were defenseless men, women, and children.

How could this massacre ever be termed "so-called?" It was a massacre in every sense of the word, and it was more horrific in my mind than 9/11/01 because they looked these people in the eyes before they killed them, and they killed them under the pretense of protecting them from the Indians. It was nothing more than wholesale butchery on the Mormons part. Peterson needs to brush up on his lies before he tries to take on MMM. I recommend that he stick with BoM apologetics (tapirs as horses and what not) and leave the mentally taxing arguments to others. Peterson just shows, once again, what a lightweight he really is.

belaja · **Joined:** Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:54 am **Posts:** 6176

capt jack wrote:

Hat-tip to Beastie from mormondiscussions.com who reports on this letter to the editor in the Weekly Standard by none other the so-called professor of Islamic Studies at the so-called BYU (click here) .

Quote:

MALIGNING MORMONS

REGARDING FRED BARNES's profile of actor Jon Voight ("Hollywood Witness," September 3), apart from the overwhelming consensus of critics that September Dawn, in which Voight stars, is a pathetic excuse for a movie, there are several other points that should be made about its misrepresentation of history.

The so-called Mountain Meadows Massacre is in no substantial way parallel to the attacks of 9/11. Speaking as a professor of Islamic studies and Arabic at Brigham Young University, there is no real resemblance between Mormons, even in the nineteenth century, and adherents of Wahhabi Islam.

At least one of the pivotal and most damning statements put in the mouth of Brigham Young by the scriptwriter of September Dawn appears to have been entirely invented by an anti-Mormon just a few years ago. It is not only "the church" that denies Brigham Young's alleged role in ordering and masterminding the massacre; no credible professional historian appears to believe it either--for the clear and sufficient reason that there is no evidence to support the charge. In fact, there is considerable reason to reject it. September Dawn is a disgrace, a piece of shameless anti-Mormon propaganda. Fortunately, it appears destined to disappear without leaving much of a trace behind.

DANIEL PETERSON
Provo, Utah

Keep it up Danny boy; whatever you think about BY ordering the massacre, it was a massacre. That part isn't theory, conjecture, hyperbole.

Maybe I should start doing the same thing: The so-called Haun's Mill atrocity; the so-called murder of Joseph Smith; the so-called tragedy on the Sweetwater.

Why is everyone else's tragedy "so-called"? That's right, silly me, they play for Jesus' team and thus have every right to piss on any tragedy that is not their own.

You know, seriously now, Danny must be mental. I'm really starting to honestly believe that he has some kind of personality disorder or something. How twisted do you have to be to come up with that shit?

Roy G Biv · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:23 am

belaja wrote:

You know, seriously now, Danny must be mental. I'm really starting to honestly believe that he has some kind of personality disorder or something. How twisted do you have to be to come up with that shit?

Deer and tapir equal "horses" in his world. That's a good indicator of where his sensibilities lie.

Hellmut · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:26 am

belaja wrote:

You know, seriously now, Danny must be mental. I'm really starting to honestly believe that he has some kind of personality disorder or something. How twisted do you have to be to come up with that shit?

Don't make me feel bad, Belaja. He has always been nice to me.
I am sure that he has his story.

Sunstoned · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:38 am

Little man Danny is trying his best to mimic the self righteous arrogance of the current crop of 15 in SLC. These guys must be repressing on all 8 cylinders if they can

Mayan Elephant · **Joined:** Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:35 am **Posts:** 1678

Sunstoned wrote:

Little man Danny is trying his best to mimic the self righteous arrogance of the current crop of 15 in SLC. These guys must be repressing on all 8 cylinders if they can

_________________
ya just had to know, didnt ya?

Mayan Elephant · **Joined:** Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:35 am **Posts:** 1678

belaja wrote:

You know, seriously now, Danny must be mental. I'm really starting to honestly believe that he has some kind of personality disorder or something. How twisted do you have to be to come up with that shit?

anyone that would call a massacre of this magnitude a "so-called massacre," and then refer to someone as an 'anti-mormon' for highlighting any details, may or may not have a mental illness. but, its fairly certain that someone that could pull that off is a helluvan asshole.

what an asshole.

so called massacre?

belaja · **Joined:** Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:54 am **Posts:** 6176

Hellmut wrote:

belaja wrote:

You know, seriously now, Danny must be mental. I'm really starting to honestly believe that he has some kind of personality disorder or something. How twisted do you have to be to come up with that shit?

Don't make me feel bad, Belaja. He has always been nice to me.
I am sure that he has his story.

Well, that's nice that he was nice to you, Hellmut. But it doesn't trump all his behavior everywhere else. This is just vile. You have to admit that. I guess I could just say he's a bad, dishonest man. Who's sometimes nice to people. I don't think that particularly. I think slightly unhinged is the better explanation. Which to me is the charitable read anyway.

tolworthy · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:48 am

Another excellent addition for the so-called list. Thanks, capt.

SillyNut · **Joined:** Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:14 am **Posts:** 3667

So, do I get any points for knowing him personally? He was in mine and Fig's bishopric (along with the rest of FARMS) when we were at the "Y". Shoot, we even got friends and family members jobs at FARMS since we knew them all like we did.....

Now I must go and repent....

chandelier · **Joined:** Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:53 am **Posts:** 354

Quote:

The so-called Mountain Meadows Massacre is in no substantial way parallel to the attacks of 9/11. Speaking as a professor of Islamic studies and Arabic at Brigham Young University, there is no real resemblance between Mormons, even in the nineteenth century, and adherents of Wahhabi Islam.

Excuse my forthcoming so-called tangent. I don't want to make any comparison between 9/11 and MMM, but (ahem) speaking as a recent student of Islamic studies and Arabic at Brigham Young University, Mormonism and Islam have all sorts of creepy parallels. I just finished reading Now They Call Me Infidel (the story of an Egyptian Muslim woman who became an American Christian in support of Israel) and to me it was like uncannily like reading a sympathathetic story from an ex-mormon. [You don't know what it's like to grow up in it. Single women are made useless. They're covering up and hiding what they really teach. They plan to take over the whole world.] Of course, "my" Mormonism was more fundamentalist than most. But a lot of the holy principles boil down to the very same thing.

Hellmut · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:55 pm

chandelier wrote:

Excuse my forthcoming so-called tangent. I don't want to make any comparison between 9/11 and MMM, but (ahem) speaking as a recent student of Islamic studies and Arabic at Brigham Young University, Mormonism and Islam have all sorts of creepy parallels. I just finished reading Now They Call Me Infidel (the story of an Egyptian Muslim woman who became an American Christian in support of Israel) and to me it was like uncannily like reading a sympathathetic story from an ex-mormon. [You don't know what it's like to grow up in it. Single women are made useless. They're covering up and hiding what they really teach. They plan to take over the whole world.] Of course, "my" Mormonism was more fundamentalist than most. But a lot of the holy principles boil down to the very same thing.

And violence against people leaving the fold. The temple punishments were quite clear about that.

Of course, criticizing that aspect of Mormon theology, I also have to give credit to the current leadership for removing these aspects from the temple rituals. On the other hand, I have heard of at least two instances where the children of post-Mormons were severely beaten by orthodox former friends.

Those stories are merely hearsay but they seem plausible to me. If you encounter someone who reports such an event, please, encourage them to record their case with the Mormon Alliance. That way, we can determine the difference between fact and rumor.

OnePartPerBillion · **Joined:** Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:18 pm **Posts:** 756

belaja wrote:

Well, that's nice that he was nice to you, Hellmut. But it doesn't trump all his behavior everywhere else. This is just vile. You have to admit that. I guess I could just say he's a bad, dishonest man. Who's sometimes nice to people. I don't think that particularly. I think slightly unhinged is the better explanation. Which to me is the charitable read anyway.

Seriously. When does this guy have time to study "Islamic studies and Arabic at Brigham Young University"???

Sounds like he's to busy in apologetics.

Seriously.

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"The So-Called Mountain Meadows Massacre"

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