Because last year's was so successful

Goldarn · **Posted:** Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:40 pm

LDA Nicolette wrote:

Another amusing thing she told me was that she was at the back of the rec hall just shaking her head saying "This is not right. This is horrible. This is wrong" the whole time it was on satellite to a couple other leaders and unbeknown to her a man standing next to her was the writer and creater of the musical they were watching. Well, funny thing is afterwards she was asked to come to a meeting critiqueing the success of the program because he heard everything she said. So she was honest with the leadership and told them why she hated what they had done. She told me that she figures she'd be getting fired from her calling soon. LOL.

She also shared that they were going to have a harder time this year pulling that off again since many youth were upset that they were given more chruch instead of a real NYEve party and said they weren't going to trust them again.

This is exactly what I meant. In TSCC, no one in the rank-and-file is allowed to criticize the GAs. Think back to the baseball baptisms—there must have been tons of missionaries, members, local leaders, etc. who had major reservations about the program, but no one said anything to anyone that mattered.

Criticism in the church is avoided, but the butt-kissing yes-men are always heard. Ergo, last year's program was a success. The kids didn't think so, and the rational local leaders didn't think so, but that (generally) doesn't matter.

If TSCC was God's True Church run by a Prophet, they wouldn't do crap like this. I've half a mind to leave some printed notes on NY eve to that effect for the kids to read. :evil:

belaja · **Joined:** Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:54 am **Posts:** 6176

Goldarn wrote:

LDA Nicolette wrote:

Another amusing thing she told me was that she was at the back of the rec hall just shaking her head saying "This is not right. This is horrible. This is wrong" the whole time it was on satellite to a couple other leaders and unbeknown to her a man standing next to her was the writer and creater of the musical they were watching. Well, funny thing is afterwards she was asked to come to a meeting critiqueing the success of the program because he heard everything she said. So she was honest with the leadership and told them why she hated what they had done. She told me that she figures she'd be getting fired from her calling soon. LOL.

She also shared that they were going to have a harder time this year pulling that off again since many youth were upset that they were given more chruch instead of a real NYEve party and said they weren't going to trust them again.

This is exactly what I meant. In TSCC, no one in the rank-and-file is allowed to criticize the GAs. Think back to the baseball baptisms—there must have been tons of missionaries, members, local leaders, etc. who had major reservations about the program, but no one said anything to anyone that mattered.
Criticism in the church is avoided, but the butt-kissing yes-men are always heard. Ergo, last year's program was a success. The kids didn't think so, and the rational local leaders didn't think so, but that (generally) doesn't matter.

If TSCC was God's True Church run by a Prophet, they wouldn't do crap like this. I've half a mind to leave some printed notes on NY eve to that effect for the kids to read. :evil:

To be fair, it's entirely possible that people did say things to those that mattered and "those that mattered" just ignored it. Or "fired" the people in question.

mamato4 · **Posted:** Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:08 am

LOL. My husband is in YM and was telling me about a combined activity they have planned for NY Eve. Too funny, now that I know what it is. He won't be impressed. Glad we declined the offer to attend (me and the kids.) Instead we're making smores and watching movies and I bought wine today. Happy New Year!

malkie · **Posted:** Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:02 pm

belaja wrote:

Goldarn wrote:

LDA Nicolette wrote:

Another amusing thing she told me was that she was at the back of the rec hall just shaking her head saying "This is not right. This is horrible. This is wrong" the whole time it was on satellite to a couple other leaders and unbeknown to her a man standing next to her was the writer and creater of the musical they were watching. Well, funny thing is afterwards she was asked to come to a meeting critiqueing the success of the program because he heard everything she said. So she was honest with the leadership and told them why she hated what they had done. She told me that she figures she'd be getting fired from her calling soon. LOL.

She also shared that they were going to have a harder time this year pulling that off again since many youth were upset that they were given more chruch instead of a real NYEve party and said they weren't going to trust them again.

This is exactly what I meant. In TSCC, no one in the rank-and-file is allowed to criticize the GAs. Think back to the baseball baptisms—there must have been tons of missionaries, members, local leaders, etc. who had major reservations about the program, but no one said anything to anyone that mattered.
Criticism in the church is avoided, but the butt-kissing yes-men are always heard. Ergo, last year's program was a success. The kids didn't think so, and the rational local leaders didn't think so, but that (generally) doesn't matter.

If TSCC was God's True Church run by a Prophet, they wouldn't do crap like this. I've half a mind to leave some printed notes on NY eve to that effect for the kids to read. :evil:

To be fair, it's entirely possible that people did say things to those that mattered and "those that mattered" just ignored it. Or "fired" the people in question.

I'm not sure what happened at the time of the BBBs, but in the early 1970s (if my memory is correct) Bernard P Brockbank - then an Assistant to the Twelve, but President of the Scotland Mission during the BBB period - took some hostile questions from Scottish members.

He defended the program by saying something to the effect that many people were baptised, and so that part of their temple work would not need to be done.

(btw, I was almost a BBB - I played for a team run by the missionaries.)

brailsmt · **Posted:** Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:27 pm

Goldarn wrote:

In TSCC, no one in the rank-and-file is allowed to criticize the GAs.

<snip>

Criticism in the church is avoided, but the butt-kissing yes-men are always heard.

<snip>

If TSCC was God's True Church run by a Prophet, they wouldn't do crap like this. I've half a mind to leave some printed notes on NY eve to that effect for the kids to read. :evil:

This is a major issue for me. When I was just starting to question and I was reluctant to criticize the church, I thought to myself "If this is all true, then there is nothing to lose by questioning and criticizing." That was a breakthrough moment for me in my journey out of the church. When bishop hard-on came by, he'd ask what he could do to get me back/prevent others from leaving, this is what I said. I told him that there is no room for dissent in the church, none whatsoever. This is painfully obvious to me now, but I still know how TBMs can live under this regime and still think to themselves that they can disagree with leaders. I mean, seriously, any organization/person that says they are above criticism, needs to be criticized, questioned and analyzed the most. This applies to the morg too. </preaching to the choir>

Reuben · **Joined:** Sun May 03, 2009 3:58 am **Posts:** 868

brailsmt wrote:

Goldarn wrote:

In TSCC, no one in the rank-and-file is allowed to criticize the GAs.

<snip>

Criticism in the church is avoided, but the butt-kissing yes-men are always heard.

<snip>

If TSCC was God's True Church run by a Prophet, they wouldn't do crap like this. I've half a mind to leave some printed notes on NY eve to that effect for the kids to read. :evil:

This is a major issue for me. When I was just starting to question and I was reluctant to criticize the church, I thought to myself "If this is all true, then there is nothing to lose by questioning and criticizing." That was a breakthrough moment for me in my journey out of the church. When bishop hard-on came by, he'd ask what he could do to get me back/prevent others from leaving, this is what I said. I told him that there is no room for dissent in the church, none whatsoever. This is painfully obvious to me now, but I still know how TBMs can live under this regime and still think to themselves that they can disagree with leaders. I mean, seriously, any organization/person that says they are above criticism, needs to be criticized, questioned and analyzed the most. This applies to the morg too. </preaching to the choir>

Ditto. Any organization that tells you that they will do your thinking for you is dangerous. History is full of examples of there such organizations can take people. Mormonism has had plenty of dark episodes to prove this point.

domesticdork · **Posted:** Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:34 pm

What are the "baseball baptisms?"

Reuben · **Joined:** Sun May 03, 2009 3:58 am **Posts:** 868

domesticdork wrote:

What are the "baseball baptisms?"

where the missionaries created baseball teams and had everyone on the team get baptized. Little leaguers grew up around the world and are mormon and don't know it. Usually the kids did not know what was going on.

Another great innovation was in Tokyo South. For a while they had protable fonts, where you could baptize people in their homes. they were getting thousands a month in that mission for a while. they were extolled as spiritual giants, until someone in COB questioned why the rest of the missions in Japan were only getting two baps a month and started to look into things.

malkie · **Posted:** Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:41 pm

Reuben wrote:

domesticdork wrote:

What are the "baseball baptisms?"

where the missionaries created baseball teams and had everyone on the team get baptized. Little leaguers grew up around the world and are mormon and don't know it. Usually the kids did not know what was going on.

Another great innovation was in Tokyo South. For a while they had protable fonts, where you could baptize people in their homes. they were getting thousands a month in that mission for a while. they were extolled as spiritual giants, until someone in COB questioned why the rest of the missions in Japan were only getting two baps a month and started to look into things.

Under the "baseball baptisms" program, the kids were usually told that they needed to be initiated into the team - and it involved getting wet.

As a Branch President in Scotland I had about 20 people attending Sacrament meeting. There were about 100-120 inactive prospective elders on the books, most of whom were "baseball baptisms", and had no idea that they were members at all. Some were quite hostile - I spent a lot of time looking for these guys, found several, and reactivated none. Some of them said "Ah'll pit the heed oan ye" if I ever came back. (that is, they would butt me in the face - your free Scottish vernacular lesson for the day)

domesticdork · **Posted:** Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:04 pm

Reuben wrote:

domesticdork wrote:

What are the "baseball baptisms?"

where the missionaries created baseball teams and had everyone on the team get baptized. Little leaguers grew up around the world and are mormon and don't know it. Usually the kids did not know what was going on.

Another great innovation was in Tokyo South. For a while they had protable fonts, where you could baptize people in their homes. they were getting thousands a month in that mission for a while. they were extolled as spiritual giants, until someone in COB questioned why the rest of the missions in Japan were only getting two baps a month and started to look into things.

wow. just wow. :shock:

PlayingwithmyZelph · **Joined:** Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:57 pm **Posts:** 55

malkie wrote:

Some were quite hostile - I spent a lot of time looking for these guys, found several, and reactivated none.

Yet all are probably still counted in the grand total of members reported in each conference.

Goldarn · **Posted:** Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:34 am

PlayingwithmyZelph wrote:

malkie wrote:

Some were quite hostile - I spent a lot of time looking for these guys, found several, and reactivated none.

Yet all are probably still counted in the grand total of members reported in each conference.

When you realize that the ones from Japan alone could easily be as high as 100,000 people, it puts TSCC's reported 13 million members in a new light. In one country under one(?) mission president, the church had 1% of their number baptized under false pretenses, just for the numbers.

But, as the man says, criticizing the GAs even when they're doing something wrong is evil and wrong.

brailsmt · **Posted:** Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:41 pm

Goldarn wrote:

PlayingwithmyZelph wrote:

malkie wrote:

Some were quite hostile - I spent a lot of time looking for these guys, found several, and reactivated none.

Yet all are probably still counted in the grand total of members reported in each conference.

When you realize that the ones from Japan alone could easily be as high as 100,000 people, it puts TSCC's reported 13 million members in a new light. In one country under one(?) mission president, the church had 1% of their number baptized under false pretenses, just for the numbers.

But, as the man says, criticizing the GAs even when they're doing something wrong is evil and wrong.

I think you meant 99%.

belaja · **Joined:** Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:54 am **Posts:** 6176

malkie wrote:

belaja wrote:

Goldarn wrote:

LDA Nicolette wrote:

Another amusing thing she told me was that she was at the back of the rec hall just shaking her head saying "This is not right. This is horrible. This is wrong" the whole time it was on satellite to a couple other leaders and unbeknown to her a man standing next to her was the writer and creater of the musical they were watching. Well, funny thing is afterwards she was asked to come to a meeting critiqueing the success of the program because he heard everything she said. So she was honest with the leadership and told them why she hated what they had done. She told me that she figures she'd be getting fired from her calling soon. LOL.

She also shared that they were going to have a harder time this year pulling that off again since many youth were upset that they were given more chruch instead of a real NYEve party and said they weren't going to trust them again.

This is exactly what I meant. In TSCC, no one in the rank-and-file is allowed to criticize the GAs. Think back to the baseball baptisms—there must have been tons of missionaries, members, local leaders, etc. who had major reservations about the program, but no one said anything to anyone that mattered.
Criticism in the church is avoided, but the butt-kissing yes-men are always heard. Ergo, last year's program was a success. The kids didn't think so, and the rational local leaders didn't think so, but that (generally) doesn't matter.

If TSCC was God's True Church run by a Prophet, they wouldn't do crap like this. I've half a mind to leave some printed notes on NY eve to that effect for the kids to read. :evil:

To be fair, it's entirely possible that people did say things to those that mattered and "those that mattered" just ignored it. Or "fired" the people in question.

I'm not sure what happened at the time of the BBBs, but in the early 1970s (if my memory is correct) Bernard P Brockbank - then an Assistant to the Twelve, but President of the Scotland Mission during the BBB period - took some hostile questions from Scottish members.

He defended the program by saying something to the effect that many people were baptised, and so that part of their temple work would not need to be done.

(btw, I was almost a BBB - I played for a team run by the missionaries.)

Right, because for every nobody that we can get dunked now, that's time freed up to do the work six more times for Elvis.

:rolleyes:

Goldarn · **Posted:** Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:13 pm

brailsmt wrote:

Goldarn wrote:

PlayingwithmyZelph wrote:

malkie wrote:

Some were quite hostile - I spent a lot of time looking for these guys, found several, and reactivated none.

Yet all are probably still counted in the grand total of members reported in each conference.

When you realize that the ones from Japan alone could easily be as high as 100,000 people, it puts TSCC's reported 13 million members in a new light. In one country under one(?) mission president, the church had 1% of their number baptized under false pretenses, just for the numbers.

But, as the man says, criticizing the GAs even when they're doing something wrong is evil and wrong.

I think you meant 99%.

I meant roughly 1% of their current total of 13-something million. At the time, of course, it was probably more than 1% of the total.

Still, think about it. Out of the current 13 million members, at least 130,000 of them were almost certainly the result of baseball baptisms/holding children under water while saying prayers/portable fonts kind of things. I wouldn't be surprised if the total was more than 5 times that (although I would be surprised if it was as high as 10 times).

I mean, sure, *everyone* was baptized under false pretenses, but a significant number of their total didn't even realize they'd been baptized! What does it say about inspiration that something that huge could happen, and God didn't say a word to His Living Oracles?

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Because last year's was so successful

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