Further Light and Knowledge

So last night, after doing even more studying on the subject, I told my wife that I think (as I thought at the time) that we made the wrong decision in having our child circumcised. I had only let it happen because of the MASSIVE amount of peer pressure I had right after the delivery.
As of right now, we are still not talking, and she is withholding affection and terms of endearment even in instant messages.
Now some might think that this is not Mormon related, but I beg to differ. When I initially voiced my opposition to the procedure, I was confronted by every Mormon support group at my wives disposal. Her female family members, my female family members, members of the relief society, ALL ,repeat ALL, of the female staff at the hospital (IHC in pleasant grove). At the time I thought this was all proof of my pet theory that females are the primary enforcers of social norms in a patriarchal society, but now I am beginning to think that its more than that. I think its simply that the community has an almost irresistible "will to conformity". A will to conform so great that it extends to mutilating our genitalia. My wife cannot even explain why she is mad. I am really beginning to think this one disagreement might be what ends our marriage.
I will not suffer another child of mine to be disfigured, and she will demand it. This means no more children, and if i cannot give her more children, she will divorce me.

I just don't know what to do. Any ideas?

P.S. not to be confrontational, but if anyone replies that they think it should be done, realize that after careful and thoughtful study, I have concluded that it violates basic human rights, and I will defend this position, aggressively, so do not be surprised. I understand that everyone has their own opinion, but if your opinion isn't backed up with hard facts, expect it to be eviscerated.

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I am Jack's Wasted Life.

Not sure what to say to this. I got circumcised as an infant, so I don't know the difference. It seems to be more aesthetic than anything nowadays, although you hear some rumors from the scientific community saying STD rates for certain diseases can be lowed with circumcision.
I'm sure its painful to watch. I wouldn't want to be in the room.

Good luck with your wife. Although I can think of better things to get divorced over, are there underlying issues?

Oh, well. In that case! Your wife is so lucky to have such an eviscerating personality around!!

--KF

I'm really sorry to hear about your situation.

I don't think circumcision is the heart of the matter, communication and respect are. And for that you probably need a relationship counselor or therapist, not the FLAK board's opinions on circumcision. Is your wife open to counselling?

We chose not to have our son circumcised. Wasn't really thought-out in advance and mostly happened because, though we had initially given verbal authorization, there was a period of time where they wouldn't perform the procedure .. they wanted him to successfully urinate first. In that brief period of time I started thinking about it ... it bugged me that the doctor was so eager to perform the circumcision so his students could observe. I wanted to rebel against that ... then I just said no. DW agreed. I think she thought such things mostly a man's decision and she respected my right to decide.

It's odd to think about this as a decision made for another human being totally at your mercy. I think we should take more care in such decisions than we do ... and so it occurred to me later that this was not unlike the decision to push a child toward baptism. They trust you. They don't really choose to be baptized, rather to honor their care-givers.

Cain, I think we're talking about a fundamental decision to rebel against the authority of our society. Perhaps your DW and her cohorts recognize this in you. Fear it. Their afraid of the fact that you question their authority over you, that you're demanding more than an appeal to conformity as justification. They clearly don't have more to offer ... well, perhaps they'll make the 'cleanliness' argument or the 'sexual gratification' argument. But I'm with you, this is largely bogus and just listed justification to the irrational core reason: obedience.

Fuck 'em.

I hope you get through this in the best way possible, and better now than later.

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Drink Lola-Cola. Refreshing taste, with just a bit of backwash.

Most studies linking a reduction in STDs to circumcised males have come under criticism because of selection bias. For instance most circumcised males in Africa are Muslim with lower infidelity rates and no condom hangup. The truth is, circumcision is a cure that has been looking for a disease for a long time, Ever sense Victorian doctors used it as a method for stopping boys from masturbating.



Fair, very fair.

However, I wouldn't and have not talked to her like that. I am just very aware of the fact that I am worked up about this issue right now and was seeking to avoid apologetics. Still fair criticism.



No she isn't open to counseling. I just feel like I'm stuck you know? She wont really even discuss the issue. Shes right, she knows it, and my opinion isn't going to change her mind.



There have been times that I said "fuck'em" but I really do love my family, and I don't want to lose them. It just makes me crazy that an issue of such fundamental abuse isn't seen as such, and that just because the community unites with her I'm supposed to role over and take it.
Its at times like this that all the problems we don't talk about in our marriage come to mind and I get really depressed and angry. I'm actually a really laid back guy, so I think it shocks DW when i get so passionate about something. This however will not change her mind, it just screws with our marriage.

-Cain

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I am Jack's Wasted Life.

Would you elaborate on this a bit? Not trying to poke the sleeping grizzly...so to speak...but I've never actually thought, "Damn, if only I had a foreskin."

I understand and agree that it's pointless and traumatizing, and if I ever have a son, I will probably argue against it. But I had never thought of a foreskin as a basic human right.

I hear ya and feel the same way about my family. I'm referring to 'fuck em' in the context of loving them by not letting them abuse your individuality. I think Mormons have a hard time with this kind of love. It's kinda antithetical to the faith.

I'll just reiterate, though I have no idea what's going on, I'd be totally surprised if your DW is reacting solely to a passion for cutting-off the foreskins of children. Seems like this is more of a spotted owl situation.

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Drink Lola-Cola. Refreshing taste, with just a bit of backwash.

It is a basic right of a human to not have procedures, alterations of anatomy, or mutilations forced upon us without consent by parties tasked with providing our well being. The fact is, most of the sensitive nerve endings in the penis are in the foreskin. This is a permanent alteration that removes (from the last study I saw) 80% of the sensation of the penis. The very fact that it is 'pointless and traumatizing' means that it violates the Hippocratic oath.

Studies show that un-biased women prefer the feel of un-circumcised men (as would make the most sense from and evolutionary POV, after all this is natures way of making it 'ribbed for her pleasure').

Imagine for a second that female circumcision was common in western countries. Most of the arguments for it would be the same (I.E. its cleaner, its more aesthetically pleasing, all the other kids are having it done so she will look the same, it doesn't interfere with sexual function*). Does that make it right? No it does not. (And just so everyone knows I understand that female circumcision removes the clitoris and therefore is more comparable to removing the whole penis. But it should follow to everyone involved that both are unnecessary, both disfigure and remove function, and both infringe on our rights to determine our own sexual destiny.)




*A common argument for male circumcision is that is "Doesn't interfere" with sexual function, as though a lack of impact is equitable with a merit. It don't help either.

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I am Jack's Wasted Life.

I must admit to having our boys circumsized.
I never did feel comfortable about it.

I never have figured out why it's so important amongst mormons. Is it the Jewish requirement for circumcision?
The only benefit I've heard of is cleanliness/increased liklihood of infection but that can easily be mitigated.

Just a few years ago I would have felt the same way: Let it happen but feel un-comfortable with it. It was a huge part of my Mormon identity in a strange way. We were like the Jews, and look at all the benefits! But as I researched it, saw it through non-mormon eyes, it really started to bug the crap out of me.

Its interesting, I still remember the first time I felt strange about the fact that it was done to me. A black friend in high school asked me "Why you white folk always cut up your kids dicks?".

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I am Jack's Wasted Life.

My son was circumcised as was I, not much I can do about it now. Having an argument with my wife about it after the fact would seem a little silly to me, but that's just me. If we had an infant boy now I wouldn't do it. But I'm not going to lose sleep or piss my wife off about something neither of us can change.

Could be worse, isn't there a muslim city where all the boys get together for a giant bris, only they're older than a few days (years older) and I can't help but imagine that it would be painful. I'm glad I don't remember my circumcision.

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I'm not sorry, I like to get laid. --Mercury

I took roughly 1/3 of my available vacation for the year to chase 12- and 13-year old boys through the woods. --Mcarp

I'm cut. My son is not.

I wish I wasn't cut. Mormon's brainwashed my parents to mutilate my genitalia.

My dad remembers his circumcision. He was 7 years old, living in central Utah. It's probably why he had it done to me at an early age, so I wouldn't remember.

I have watched several circums done.....babies cry like hell. One doctor did it by pulling the foreskin over the tip, shoved a safety pin through to hold it in place, then cut around the circle. I was almost crying.....

I had both my sons cut, per their fathers' decision.
I have noted no difference between men I've been with being "ribbed" or not. So I'm not so sure that's a valid arguement. Just sayin'.....
I have noted a cleanliness difference in the nursing homes I've worked at, when someone comes in who hasn't received good care. When we pull back the foreskin to clean them well, it's stomach turning.

My understanding is that it's about 50/50 in America now, with fewer and fewer having it done. Years ago, a child would have been the odd man out in the locker room, but I'm not so sure now.

I have to agree with Kate. If this is the breaking point to your marriage, you have alot more wrong than this topic. Might need to chat that out with your wife, and see if she can leave the RS out of it.

I left the decision up to my husband. My husband is circumcised. He opted to have our son circumcised as well. I think it was basically the "I want my son to look like me" thing.

Honestly, if I had to do it over again, I think I would have argued against it. But at the time, I didn't know any different and thought it was just something that every little boy had done.

I was VERY glad my second child was a girl so I did not have to deal with the issue. But I did get my daughter's ears pierced when she was a toddler, so I guess I don't have a problem mutilating my children for my own personal reasons after all?

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