Further Light and Knowledge

I believe you!

As to circumcision, we just had a baby several months ago and I voted no cut while my wife was leaning towards cutting, mostly for cultural reasons. I did some research but not to the extent you did Cain. For me, it was simply a matter of whether it was medically necessary. My research showed it wasn't and this was confirmed by the doctor at the hospital. My wife left it up to me and I said no, if it's not necessary I'm not putting him through that. (I've never witnessed a circumcision but my mom told me my brothers and I all cried like hell.)

Does it really matter that he wouldn't remember it?? He won't remember shit from now. Does that mean I can do whatever the fuck I want to him?

I also don't understand doing it "so he looks like me." In fact, I think it's ridiculous. My dad never had me stand in front of the mirror with him and pull out our dicks so he could say, "look son, our dicks look the same!" And I didn't plan on doing that with my son. By the way, my son does look like me which is pretty cool, but he doesn't need to look
that much like me.

Cain, I think you should share all the info you've found with your wife. Remember, "only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned." There's time to convince her.

_________________
He never said it would be worth it; He only said it would be easy.

We elected the no route. Our oldest son was born with a bilateral cleft lip and palate. gd says to me, we don't need to put that poor baby through anything more than is necessary. After thinking about it momentarily I was glad we didn't do it. (he had 15 surgeries before the age of 13) So when our second son was born we discussed it and I cold not bring myself to let them do it to my baby. It just seemed mean for no reason. I didn't buy the sell of the baby not feeling it.

My SIL was giving my husband (who is TBM) grief because we didn't circumcise our son. She said that they'd done it because it was important to her husband and her that their son 'look like his father'. (Understand that his father never is seen by anyone in the family besides the wife in less than his garments and is embarrassed if his kids even see him in those, so when sonny-boy would even realize that Daddy and he look the same/different, I don't know.)

My husband lost a few of his fingers in a farming accident as a boy and he threw out that, asking her if he should cut off a few of his son's fingers so that they'd look the same. Cut off one part of the body, why not another?

It truly is a ridiculous argument.

some thoughts -

1) Circumcision was what initially convinced me the bible is false except perhaps where it might have 'been translated correctly. No perfect god would create something broken and require it be removed only to be restored upon death in the restoration of all things

2) I cried for 2 weeks when I learned what I had done to my first 3 sons and what had been done to me. My fourth son sometimes refers to himself as the lucky one.

3) Cumom was right on about the WWII connection

4) Blue-Cross Blue-Shield covered female circumcision until 1976. It was made a federal felony in 1995.

5) The Circumcision Information Resources Library has a section dealing with ethical issues surrounding circumcision and when proxy consent is justified.

6) In 2003, Utah became the 11th state to stop funding circumcision through Medicaid, there are 16 or 17 now. As has been pointed out, circumcision rates are falling nationwide. I think the nexus of patriotism and trying to fit in and be mainstream in America has driven circumcision in mormonism. Add to that the post-hoc rationalization that it was in the bible and viola (just ignore what is said in the NT and BoM). Incidentally, many immigrants to USA do not have that tradition.

7) Thankfully most who are circumcised as infants do not express memories of it, but some do.

8 ) Non-surgical foreskin restoration is a real possibility for people wanting recovery.

_________________
It is sometimes easier to reject strong evidence than to admit we’ve been wrong. - Carl Sagan

I know that this is a serious subject, especially for the OP but you'll have to forgive me, I'm getting the image of a very bizare utah Country FHE......

Were you serious in saying your wife would divorce you if you don't give her more children? That says more to me than the circumcision argument.

I think you need to insist that both of you talk honestly about WHY you hold the opinions you hold. For her, that might mean some deep thinking, and some research. You should approach her on eggshells. She's probably already defensive. She may not know why she wants her future sons circumcised and that could be why she refuses to discuss it with you. To be blunt, you need to be open to hearing her reasons, even if they are only based on feelings. Her reasons could be purely cultural. Or maybe she thinks it would be unfair to cut one son and not another. Maybe she believes it's cleaner. Maybe she likes how it looks on you. But if she doesn't think you'll really listen, she's not likely to tell you.

Of course, all this is moot if she won't give you the same respect and really listen to your reasoning.

Regarding the argument against circumcision because it causes pain for the infant, I have a question: Can circumcision be performed with an anesthetic? If it can, would that make a difference in anyone's position?

That's an interesting question. My inexpert guess would be though that it's unsafe to administer anesthesia to infants without a more pressing reason than cosmetic surgery. A local anesthesia might be possible. Certainly not general anesthesia, though.

_________________
Fear will keep the local systems in line.

I have seen many babies having very serious surgery at just a few days old. Our son had surgery at five weeks. While it is possible and safe to go under general, there are risks involved. When our son was old enough to go to the prepare for surgery classes at about age 3. We took him. It stressed us all out more than it helped. I had a small procedure done under general anesthesia a few years back and now have a whole lot more empathy for our son. Going under is not fun and to do it when it isn't necessary is not safe or prudent. IMHO. If I were to have more children (not going to happen) I still would make the same decision not to do it. My understanding too is that not being circumcised makes for more enjoyable sex??

To me, no, it wouldn't make a difference. For me, the issue is a human rights one. It is not my body. If it is a life-threatening issue, I would have no problem at all making that call for my child. If it is a cosmetic issue, it is not my call to make.

A previous poster mentioned earrings also being a cosmetic issue, but in my mind that's quite different. I wouldn't pierce my children's ears without them requesting it, but when other parents do, it doesn't feel the same to me as circumcision. One is poking a hole in cartilage that will grow back and heal should the child decide that they don't want earrings when they're older. The other is removing a functioning, normal part of the body that will not simply grow back should the child decide they'd rather have a foreskin after all.

Not mine. Circumcision is mutilation. I don't care if you use anesthetic or not.

And the argument for cleanliness is invalid. Yes your <random body part> will get dirty if you don't clean it. Circumcision for hygiene is as illogical as having your nose removed so you don't get boogers.

From my understanding only about 1/4th of circs happen WITHOUT local anesthetic. However, the child is sore for up to a week afterward, and petroleum jelly needs to be applied to the inside of the diaper to prevent the sensitive tissue from sticking to the inside of the diaper.

This for me does not make any difference. If i allow this to happen, I am disfiguring my child's genitalia for no good reason.

-Cain

_________________
I am Jack's Wasted Life.

For me, it's not that clear cut (pardon the pun).

If I were to take my current ideology and go back to being in my early 20s again, I doubt I would even want to have kids let alone insist on them being circumcised, so I don't have any skin in the game (there I go again).

That said, I'm not religious about it either way. Humans do all sorts of cosmetic things these days that early humans did not do. If you don't want it done on your kid, don't do it (and for the record if I had a newborn boy right now I'd probably not have it done even though it looks weird to me uncut). But if you're someone who wants it done, that's fine too IMO.

BTW, for the militant antis: would you let your 10 year old opt not to get braces? When my daughter had cosmetic issues with her lip as a baby I sure as fuck had no problem putting her through temporary pain for no other reason than so she would look the way our culture expects her to look. Do you look on me with scorn for having made that decision for her?

--KF

I would let my 10 yr old opt not to get braces.

I've never thought about the 'cosmetic surgery' argument from the angle that you're talking about with your daughter. Off the top of my head, with three kids climbing on me (so not really well thought out), I would say that I too would make the decision to have the surgery in that situation. I would justify it the following way -it's not removing a normal, natural body part that has a useful function.

My son's was done with anesthi.... however the hell you spell pain meds. A local, topical med was used. He didn't cry, etc. The whole thing was very quick. They let me come watch, mainly because I wouldn't let them go without me, lol.

We used the petroleum jelly for a month per our Jewish dr. The nurses scoffed at it but it's what we were told to do, so I did it.

I don't mind people who go the noncirc route. I mind the people who go the noncirc route who tell ME that I made the wrong choice. Likewise I don't mind people who go the circ route. But I do mind the ones who say those who didn't made the wrong choice.

_________________
Sometimes I make my kids wear sombreros and scuba fins around the house. Not because there is any reason. I just want to teach them obedience.--Darth J