Further Light and Knowledge

I had exactly the same experience. It's one of the great ironies of my life (so far).

In a way this isn't so surprising. The founders of Mormonism may have had a problem with telling the truth but all the poor fools who fell for the con only did so because it was specifically designed to fit the truth they were looking for to begin with. Before all of this there was a whole lot of folks who believed that "the truth was out there," that it was attainable by the human mind, and that god-willing there is nothing more precious in the world.

That's what you call a legacy of truth-seeking and some big-ass shoes to fill.

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Drink Lola-Cola. Refreshing taste, with just a bit of backwash.

I'm naturally pretty idealistic (I think), but I think I'm even moreso from some of the mormon stuff that really resonnated with me when I was growing up. The stuff about "Truth" in the D&C really really smashed me when I was a teenager in seminary; and the "seeking after" stuff in AOF 13; and then on my mission I found that J.S. quote (paraphrasing): fundamental principle of mormonism is to seek out and embrace all truth let it come from whence it may; and then the stuff in 3 Nephi about all truth being compounded into one great whole; then the temple ceremony's stuff about the garment markings and truth; and the King Follet discourse about learning everything to become like god...That symbolism really sunk in and to this day is at the core of who I am. I think it's partly behind my values as a scholar and teacher, as well. And it's definitely part of my politics. Add to that my ENFP personality and you have a passionate (and impatient) idealist.

But like GD said, it's also what led me to finally admit I didn't believe in the church shortly after my mission. And then to spend a couple years trying to make my experience of the church fit the ideals.

Yes, it was in large part the Church that instilled in me a belief in seeking out the truth and not fearing truth. Evidently, Howard Hunter was the last GA who believed in not fearing truth, and he was bulldozed by Pakcer, Hinckley, and Mark Petersen (if Arrington is to be believed).

The Church also instilled in me a belief in egalitarianism, as "God is no respecter of men." I'm always "meh" when there's a movie being filmed and coworkers go rushing to look at tthe movie stars. I get irritated when the entire Interstate is closed between the airport and the city center whenever a POTUS comes to town. Let him sit in the damn traffic like everybody else (I do get the security concerns, however). Funny how the Church is obsessive about rank, titles, seniority, and all those other tihings that go along with being respecters of men. However, in my childhood ward, everybody was on a first-name basis, and even the kids called the adults by their first names. That was pretty egalitarian.

You clearly don't move in the same mormon social circles I do. You should have met my mother. Or my dad. Or my siblings. They believe church leadership speaks for God. Or my neighbors. Iron rodders to the core.

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"Mormon culture is a combination of well-intentioned naïveté, the Stepford Wives, and the Holy Inquisition." ~Dr.Todd Ormsbee
http://froggey.wordpress.com

My internet has been out for 2 days so sorry for the late reply. Thank you KF for the comment, you are correct in the point I was trying to make. I want to make it perfectly clear that I wasn't saying John isn't a Mormon, he may call himself anything he would like, that is a personal decision that I respect. The issue I had with his beliefs are that they don't line up with the mormon doctrines. I think there are many situations that have shades of gray but religion, specifically Mormonism, has been taught over and over again but prophets and GAs that it is black and white. It's most likely that not all mormons believe every doctrine but in John's case I found his skeptism over the doctrines he discussed to be part of core beliefs, not just some fringe beliefs that was touched on once or twice.

Edit: BTW the 1981 Liahona article I referenced came straight from LDS.org, I found it under gospel topics/prophets. It's listed under the church magazine articles. So when it was mentioned who cares about an article from the Liahona from almost 30 years ago the answer is the LDS church obviously cares enough to link it.

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Lead me not into tempation
I can find it myself

I was thinking that even people who believe what your parents do probably ignore some teachings and embrace others. Some of them are just contradictory; like, is God's love unconditional or not? I've never known even a ultra-TBM who actually believes in following *all* of the dictates from the GAs, although they usually have apologist-style reasoning for doing what they want.

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I reject your reality and substitute a Star Trek episode of my own choosing.

Unfortunately I am just jumping into this thread now, and have not had the time to read through every post, but I am going to give this podcast a chance.

I am a huge podcast fan - I listen to quite a few on a regular basis -- and I have been hoping to find a Mormon-related podcast that was not total shit. I don't care if it's pro-LDS, anti-, New Order Mormon, or whatever, every Mormon-related podcast I have listened to is shit. The only one that was high quality was John Dehlin's Mormon Stories a few years ago - until he had "the meeting with his bishop" in which he apparently handed his testicles to the bishop wrapped up with a fancy bow. After that, his podcasts were not the same. I've tried to listen to Van Hale, and I have never listened to a more boring man (outside of General Conference). I was once a fan of Mormon Potluck but they have evidently ceased production. I've tried a few others, and they are all amateurish and boring, or shrill (if they're anti-).

I have high hopes for Mormon Expression. I'll listen with an open mind.

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I always distrust people who know so much about what God wants them to do to their fellows.
Susan B. Anthony

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He never said it would be worth it; He only said it would be easy.

Seems like John has gotten a lot of "flak" (lol) both on this board and others. Whether or not he merits it, I don't know and I'm not involved enough in the politics of DAMU to have an informed opinion.

But what I do know, is that his podcasts and "how to stay in the church" essay have been helpful to this relatively recent apostate. I am no longer a true believer, but still attend church (NOM I guess). But I do things on my own terms. John has helped me realize that it's OK to be a cafeteria mormon - and by and large, you're not going to run into any issues (most of the church is filled with people who are unmotivated and only there because they have to be, so it's not hard to blend right in as long as you don't go spouting off on doctrinal issues). Maybe not the best long term solution, especially if raising kids, but for the time being I am HAPPIER continuing to be active. Again maybe this will change over time, but for the time being it is the case.

Anyway my point is that I appreciate what John is doing, his approach is by no means good for everybody, but for the time being works for me. I don't think it is a good long term solution though, especially considering I have 2 young sons (ages 3 and 1). The good news is, my wife has basically the same opinion of things as I do. I am very lucky to not be going through this alone, as many of you have.

We'll see what the future brings us.

I just joined the forum today. I have lurked for a while now, always interesting to hear what people have to say. For some reason I feel comfortable here and over at NOM, but not very comfortable at either postmo or rfm.

Just my .02

I am in agreement with this. My parents are TBM to the core, and claim to believe every word from comes from the propet's month. But there is a whole bunch of the whacky stuff they just ignore. Laminites turning white is one example. How many TBMs really believe that.

They may not believe it now, but I think a lot of people did when SWK talked about it. There was a family in my ward growing up who was host to an exchange student from one of the reservations. He would get up in fast and testimony meeting and go on and on about how he could tell the difference in her life and how he could see her skin changing colors very gradually in the pictures since she had come to stay with them. I always was uncomfortable during these testimonies and wondered how she felt.

I know what you mean. The columnist Robert Kirby did the same for me. He let me see that it was OK to have a sense of humor about not believing some things. It was such a relief to laugh at some of the silly doctrine that I thought I was supposed to take deadly seriously. After that, I allowed myself to analyze the differences between how I felt about things and about what I was hearing over the pulpit. It made my transition out of the church a lot less psychologically traumatizing than it could have been.

Hi Mrs. D

Hi, girlfriend. Where you been?
I hereby give credit to Nanna P for helping me laugh my way out of the church too.