Further Light and Knowledge

The latest Mormon Expression episode is available:

Mormon Expression Episode 8: Mormon Stories and John Dehlin

http://mormonexpression.com/

I don't think I could stomach an hour long conversation with mindbending cognitive dissonance apologia. But thanks for the heads up.

I think you may have misread John. He is no apologist.

I am confused about this. Is John a member, ex member, reformed member? I have not been able to figure out if he is rejoining, leaving, or just hanging around.

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"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."-Thomas Jefferson

Interestingly enough, John explains all of this in the podcast.

Believe us, John, when we tell you that many of us have been through the "John Dehlin Experience" more times than we can count. I seriously doubt he has anything to say in the podcast that we haven't heard before. And I don't think cumom is misreading John at all.

But to each his own, and I'm sure some FLAKites will take away something of worth from Brother Dehlin's musings.

ETA: I appreciate the work you put into your podcasts. Keep up the good work.

John Dehlin is making the argument that the church is making baby steps to become less and less dogmatic over time, but the realtiy is the church is evolving and becoming more mainstream because it's members are dropping like flies, and they're scraping to hold on to them. They're a business that accomodates to keep their satisfied customers coming back for more. Evolution is part of the process. The church isn't becoming more moral, it's people are. Dogma stays dogma until enough people cry outrage. Then God changes his mind. All it takes is a moral majority.



Me too, but I try to escape from circles such as these as soon as I realize I'm in one.

John Larsen, I don't think the church will ever apolgize for it's past atrocities because as soon as it does it loses the illusion of having Jesus at the helm. The church can't afford to lose complete control over the pulpit in general conference.

-Vahn

Interesting. My impression has been rather the opposite. I used to think like that, oh, 15 years ago. It is what kept me hanging in there. Eventually though, I figured it out. I was just talking to people like me, who wanted it to become less dogmatic. But the institution and those who hold ultimate power within it could care less about those conversations. And they are not about less dogmatism.

so much hate, guys.

I seriously think everyone should listen to this podcast. Really...John Dehlin...apologist?

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I blog a lot more than I post, so you might want to check out Irresistible (Dis)Grace sometime.

I have just listened to an hour of John presenting his position of supporting the absurd as one of validity and being worthwhile. Mormonism is a fraud. We know this, we've discovered this, and we've paid the price to extricate ourselves from it in order to live authentically. I think John should keep Mormon stories going as it does an excellent job in helping folks find their way out of Mormonism. I know that it not his intent, but once folks see the fraud and know the jig is up, there is no real reason to remain behind and pretend that the Morg is something other than what it is.

Why remain and support a lie? Why? I just don't understand John Dehlin, it is beyond me. People need to find a way OUT of Mormonism. They need the tools and support to make the transition out, and If more and more people feel confident in this, Mormonism would cease to be what it is today.

Let's find a way to love and support the Mormons out of Mormonism, not invent new ways to keep the absurd fraud in motion.

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"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

The idea is that there is still something within Mormonism that represents something that made people happy, that brought people joy. This doesn't rely on the absurdity of the church, its imperfections and falsehoods. So, when we say, uncompromisingly, "Let's lead everyone out," we are essentially stripping them of some tool that brought them happiness and giving them nothing.

Note that John isn't defending the draconian. He isn't defending the party line. He is defending the idea that there was and is a spark of something for some -- that although obscured or extinguished through the organization -- can be found again. If that is found by people outside the church, then so be it. He is more about people reaching a "Fowler stage 5" of faith...but it seems to me that if people found a spark of light in the church, then perhaps they can search for that spark no matter what the inconsequential sludge.

and yet, as we see in this topic and elsewhere, he is reviled. He is reviled by the average believing member because he raises tough questions. He is reviled by the apologists because his goals aren't aligned with theirs to support a crackless faith in the organization. And still he is reviled by the disaffected for..."betraying" us? For "betraying" his knowledge of the cracks, holes, sludge, faulty foundation, etc., etc., etc.,? How can he be betraying us simply by virtue of the fact that he still finds something good within?

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I blog a lot more than I post, so you might want to check out Irresistible (Dis)Grace sometime.

I personally do not feel at all betrayed. But if there are those here who do, I can guarantee that isn't the reason why.

--KF

I'm torn between laughing at this, or getting annoyed at this. I'll do both, because I can navigate paradox!!

FTR, I am happy for people who are happy in the church. I don't feel the need to tell anyone why I'm not TBM and what I now believe or don't believe. If they dig it, let them dig it. If they ask me questions, I might answer, I might not -- just because I think something doesn't mean I have to tell others what I think.

I don't object at all to Dehlin's helping people stay mormon -- people have their reasons and I'm not inclined to overthink those. Live and let live.

The thing that bugs me about Dehlin has little to do with helping people who really want the help in finding the third way (as if there were only three...). No, I'm far more bothered by how he goes around talking smack about exmos, and how he has a savior complex, and how he thinks he is more mature than TBMs or exmos because he can "navigate paradox." (For those who want to rush in and say he didn't say anything about being more mature than TBMs or exmos, please know that I am going off far more history than just this single quote that possibly was taken out of context. Previously, he has provided more than enough context to make his perspective clear.)

With Mormonism one really can't have it the way John postulates. It is draconian, it is a one way or the highway sort of thing, and just how are children supposed to clear through all of this bullshit and make informed decisions under the onslaught of the propaganda? Mormonism destroys families, marriages, relationships. It takes money and labor under false pretenses, it deceives its members and the public alike, it teaches absurdities which are in direct conflict with reason and science causing one to live within a bifurcated mind, yet they have ward partys so this makes it all worthwhile.

Growing past the need of external validation and group think should be the aim of our species if we are to progress beyond the stupidity and inanity of religions such as Mormonism. He may be looking for a kinder, gentler version of Mormonism, but in the end it's still a fecal filled brownie and no amount of pretending and chocolaty goodness will truly be able to mask the reality of the ingredients.

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"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

Is there not forgiveness? Is there not redemption? perhaps I've come to the scene late, but the "savior complex" hasn't really been my impression. But you know what? I can take your word that that's the vibe he may have put out in the past -- because what I can say is that I've heard him (even in this podcast) apologize for the way that he's erred in coming off as "more mature" or as having a "savior complex."

So, I dunno. I don't hold it against him.

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I blog a lot more than I post, so you might want to check out Irresistible (Dis)Grace sometime.