Further Light and Knowledge

Recently, some suggestions have surfaced that there were no internet (or knowledgeable, questioning) mormons prior to the incredible growth of the internet. The implication, of course, is that the LDS church was doing *just fine* until the internet came along and ruined everything.

With all due respect, I have to disagree. Even before the late 90s when the internet began to be widely adapted - there were problems within mormonism. It's not a chicken and the egg proposition - there was plenty of information out there. It was just easier to ignore.

I myself left the LDS church in the early 90s - before the wider adaption of e-mail and the internet. Many colleges and universities had developed e-mail systems, but the general public just wasn't aware of them (or able to access them).

So the idea of going to a search engine and typing a question was just not easily available. There were academic journals, of course, and encyclopedias. But those could be incredibly out of date, or not have access to certain information.

Even now, of course, the internet still doesn't have everything a person might want to know. Yet now, I can look at my local library's catalog over the internet, and request that a book or magazine be reserved (from the comfort of my home). Many years ago, I would have to ask a reference librarian - or look through the subject cards in the physical card catalog. And missionaries who would steal "anti-mormon" books from the shelves - it's now much easier for libraries to track what is on their shelves, and to reorder lost and missing copies.

Yet despite the difficulty of finding information, there were many things that were still possible. No Man Knows My History was published in 1945. While it wasn't intended to be an "anti-mormon" book, it was quickly labeled as such. Before the priesthood ban on blacks was lifted in 1978 - some members left over the discrimination against people of color. Conclusive evidence of BOM archeology might have been reason for others, or Book of Abraham scholarship. Still other people left with the excommunication of Sonja Johnson, or the 1993 excommunication of the September Six.

All of these things happened prior to the wider adaption of the internet. The problems and questions were still out there. It was possible to find information - and not even look at any supposedly "anti-mormon" works to do so. It might have been more difficult - but it was certainly possible.

It is true that communities of former mormons appear to be more present now. When I left, I honestly felt like one of the only people who had ever left mormonism. Of course, I had always been told that people didn't leave - and if they did, it wasn't for doctrinal reasons. So it was surprising to me when some time ago, I found online communities of people who had left mormonism - or who were not full believers.

So the internet did not create a class of people who questioned the LDS corner on truth. It's unknown (since we don't have access to independent numbers of members) if caused people to leave in greater numbers if at all.

Much like a for-profit business, everything that has happened was the result of direct action by the LDS leadership - or the conscious inaction to a growing issue. The messenger or facilitator doesn't deserve the blame on this one.

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my blog

[Quote]The messenger or facilitator doesn't deserve the blame on this one[\Quote]

I spent plenty of time on the internet, but it really didn't have much to do with my disaffection which was a combination of doctrinal and cultural cognitive dissonance combined with the fact that I didn't feel I was living with integrity to my own values to continue acting as a member.

I agree that it does provide an effective mode of disseminating the message and facilitates the gathering of groups of like-minded or interested persons, but it certainly can't be blamed for the conflicting doctrines, guilt trips, classification of people into groups by gender or race or sexual orientation and then characterizing their treatment by said classification, elitist attitudes, and more. The internet only provides access to knowledge and communication. If the LDS church was without blemish, its countenance would be shining...it isn't. It also would have nothing to fear from being examined via the internet or otherwise.

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I wish karma tasted more like caramel.

"All we are is pulverized micro particulates circulating in the after effect of convection and circulation." ~Dawgma

I agree. The baptism stats started to decline in the late 1980s, ten years before the Net became widespread. E.g. when the kids born during correlation started to go on missions.

Irrational beliefs and a shameful past are no obstacle to a successful religion. But boring and unresponsive? That's fatal.

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P.S.
I agree with everything ever posted by Hellmut, Philo and Susan D.
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answers to life's biggest questions

Absolutely! There used to be interesting discussions in church where people didn't always agree, but it was fun to talk about it and THINK. They turned it into baby food and the making of a lot of automatons giving all the "right" answers to all the "right" questions. It used to be "The glory of god is intelligence". Now it is "The glory of god is rigid obedience".

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I wish karma tasted more like caramel.

"All we are is pulverized micro particulates circulating in the after effect of convection and circulation." ~Dawgma

I agree and disagree. I agree that disaffection has been around for a long time. William Law, anyone? The internet is not the only cause of disaffection, but is absolutely, 100% a major facilitator. The internet is a catalyst. I don't know if I would have stayed out of the church if it hadn't been for the readily available information on the internet. My 3 month binge on all the information I could find about mormonism cemented my disaffection, without that, I would likely have never removed my name, and would probably be pressured into going back to church at some time in my life.

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Random Stuff from a Random Mind
Ex-Mormons Worldwide

I was dissatisfied with the church through the 70s and 80s. Inactive much of the 80s and 90s. BOA was a major hurdle as was the racism.

The internet crystallized my disbelief though

Having attended church over 40 years, I've witnessed huge changes in the meeting schedules (remember when we were THRILLED over a 3 hour block??) doctrine, discussions, divorce, yadda yadda yadda...

The internet was a huge factor in my disaffection these last 3 years. Though DH and I have inherited, bought, or been given most of the early writtings in their original format, I wouldn't have the time or clue where to read. Here, someone posts a subject and question, and 4-5 people have the answer, source, page number.....and it locks in my belief system that "Yes, so and so DID say this...." I can look it up with this easy guidance from FLAK members who are good at this.
Or I can google something and find an answer, albeit up for continued research to validate.

My main reason for leaving the church is that I simply don't fit in.
I never have, I never will. Even on my mission, during my most pious days, I stuck out for being loud, laughing too much, flirting with the elders, and wanting to enjoy the culture.
I still don't fit in as an old woman either. I swear at home, and it slips in my normal language (bitch, hell, damn), I still flirt shamelessly (and run if anyone flirts back!!), I take the devil's advocate sometimes in lessons, and I openly complain when I disagree with current folklore.

I want to be in a church that focuses on Christ. Just Christ. Not leaders, Saints of old, politicians, snakes, voodew, or whatever.

Yes, the internet supported my natural inclination of not fitting in with mormonism, and now my DH has fairly given up on making me go. Yeah!

For me, the internet wasn't just about the information. Seeing first-hand (well, through the wires, anyway) that there were people who had left the church, and were happy and fulfilled individuals, helped a ton.

It used to be that when you left the church, you left alone (or just your family, if you were lucky). Now you can see the end from the beginning, and the journey isn't as scary.

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I reject your reality and substitute a Star Trek episode of my own choosing.

This was part of it for me--making that final break. You're always made to feel like you're the ONLY one who feels the way you do, the only one who sees the things you see. It was such a revelation when I realized that A LOT of people felt and saw what I did and that I wasn't crazy and/or under the sway of Stan.

I have to agree and disagree also.... just to be contrary

I think back to my youth, I was a teen in the 80's living in Australia. The church's presence in society was minimal, and I quite literally would have had almost no chance to come across true Mormon history. Something like "No Man Knows My History" just didn't exist in my environment. Now I think about teens living in Australia today, and they have a wealth of information at their fingertips. Where I would have basically had to write to an American and ask them to purchase certain books and mail them to me in the past, now I can type a google query and get all the info I need. So I think the internet does have a huge impact.

Now, that said, the internet actually probably kept me IN the church for far longer than I would have been otherwise. I spent 10 years doubting, and trying to figure out what I believed, and during that time (I am ashamed to say) I was usually mollified by apologetics I would find on the web. They were rarely satisfying, but they were enough for me because I was scrambling for any thread to hold on to. I studiously avoided "anti-Mormon" sites, so the only discussions I would engage in were on the Mormon Apologetic sites. Those sites kept me in the church for a long time, way past where I might have stayed otherwise.

For me also I lost my faith in God before I lost faith in the church (I know that makes little sense). The internet really had little to do with that. What the internet did for me was provide support when I needed it, and validation that I was already on the right path.

If only the printing press had never been invented, the Protestant Reformation likely would have never happened.

I view the internet as just as revolutionary as the printing press. The printing press was invented in 1440. It wasn't until 1517 that Martin Luther posted his 95 Theses on the church door. Was there disaffection with Catholicism before that? Yeah, but Protestantism began in earnest after Luther's courageous 95 Theses. It took 77 years. I don't think it will take 77 years for there to be another seminal event such as Luther nailing his Theses to the door of the church, but I believe that the internet will prove much more devastating to religion than the Reformation was to Catholicism. I believe we are seeing the beginnings of the New Reformation (tm) already as evidenced by the online exmo communities, and in a more broad sense by the formation of online freethinker/atheist/agnostic/humanist groups.

This is all conjecture and hopeful thinking on my part, but I don't think that necessarily makes it wrong. Five hundred years from now, I suspect that the internet will have changed religion much more than Luther's 95 Theses did between 1517 and 2010.

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Random Stuff from a Random Mind
Ex-Mormons Worldwide

I remember looking at DH during meetings in the past when GBH would make reference to the "evils of the Internet". DH, being the computer programmer he was, would look at me and whisper, "and the blessings" since, uh, we paid tithe on our income derived from his swimming in said "evil" all day at work.

I had the feeling we weren't really the kind of non-thinking Mormons that TSCC was starting to require when they moved from free thought/discussion in meetings to the "four fold plan" (or whatever they called it) which equaled mind-numbing boredom and repetition of canned question/answer sessions. Not only that, but whenever there was a policy/doctrine with which I didn't agree I would go to my bishop and tell them what I thought about it and how we could help women feel more important within the Gospel by including them more in real ways. I would sure love to see my old membership file now, lol.

Oh and NiB, I didn't know Voodew had his own church....I'd sure go to that one!