Further Light and Knowledge

Why can't my 14 almost 15 year old daughter just wait till she's 21 or 22 or older? Why? And does she not know we have access to everything she does online, and if she doesn't how could she forget? We tell her all the time that we have access to everything she says and does. Fuck. Shit. Time for some loss of freedoms I guess.

Here's a few fun phrases and keywords from the past three days history of the stuff we watch.
-I'm gonna dress like god's personal slut (my favorite [[shudder]])
-lost my v-card (someone's going to lose a penis, this is her bragging to a high-school guy on 'Pinger')
-FUCK FUCK MOTHERFUCKER! (hmmm)
-I drink all the time (likely not true, I keep pretty strict tabs on the hard liquor and if she is it's teeny tiny micro sips: bragging again)
-I occasionally smoke weed (also likely not true, unless she's doing it while she's at sleep overs with a particular friend: again bragging)
-my parents are lame and overprotective (we knew that already but apparently we're not protective enough)

So, the question is... I don't know what the question is, I don't have time to deal with this, I don't want to have to deal with this, right now I want her to be 21 or 22 so I can worry about her but say "she's old enough to make her own shitty decisions."

We can't lock her up. We can't force her to never hang out with her friends. We can't push it so hard that she rebels harder.
Fuck. I really don't know what to do. She's definitely not going to the party this friday night that we told her she could go to... which is where she plans on dressing like "gods personal slut" and her and her friends hooking up with some guys during or after (I couldn't tell which) one of whom is 16 but is going to drive (illegally) the rest of them around. I'm disappointed and a little pissed

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I'm not sorry, I like to get laid. --Mercury

I took roughly 1/3 of my available vacation for the year to chase 12- and 13-year old boys through the woods. --Mcarp

And the coup de grace of the whole thing is that when X, Y and/or Z activity FINALLY catches up with her it will be YOU having to pick up the pieces even though it was YOU telling her all along to not do XYZ.


Kids drive me nucking futs.

I'm pretty sure I was never this age.



BTW, dude....do you realize that every TbM reading this post is thinking, "See! See what happens when you don't bring your kids up in the church!?!"

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All views expressed by jahedgpeth are the sole property of jahedgpeth inc. and subject to change by edit without notice.

I'm trying to be a little creative in how I approach this with her... since a lot of her life (apparently) is online (I fought against the I-pod touch, but it's wi-fi doesn't work most of the time so I've let it slide), I was thinking a personal message composed to her on FB might be an interesting way to open things up



What do you think?

eta: besides a note about these "consequences" are minor compared to real-life consequences ie pregnancy, STDs, car accidents, death, rape....

jahedg... I don't think it's that I was never that age, it's more that I don't remember being so "wordly" but then i grew up in Utah and didn't know what "fuck" really meant till I was about 17-18 (seriously).

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I'm not sorry, I like to get laid. --Mercury

I took roughly 1/3 of my available vacation for the year to chase 12- and 13-year old boys through the woods. --Mcarp

Tibber. You know I love you to death, so here's my advice:

The worst thing to do to a semi-rebellious teen is crack down on them.

Here's the deal. She's going to do all of this whether you want her to or not. Locking her down isn't going to prevent it and will only position her to resent you for it.
What I would do: Talk to her. No email messages, no notes, not beating around the bush. Sit her down and have an open, honest, calm, open, even-toned, calm, open conversation. Don't tell her that you know all of this, especially that you snooped, even though it was perfectly within your right to do this, if you want her to come to you and talk to you. You and I both know where this is going to end up for her, most likely. So why not work on building a trust relationship with her?

For example:


"Daughter, I love that you want to express yourself. I want you to be able to do this. I only ask you to keep in mind that I was a teenaged boy once and I know what every teenaged boy wants. I'm not trying imply that anything bad will happen to you if you decide you want to show more skin than I'm comfortable with. But I would really be sad if something does happen to you and it is because some boy thought that because you dress showing skin it was an open invitation to take advantage of you. I hope that I never have to be in that position and, more importantly, that you never have to be in that situation."



"Daughter, you're getting to the age where you're going to be more and more interested in sex. And guess what? That's OK. Sex is great, but it's even better when you know how to protect yourself. I'm not saying that I'm OK with the idea of you having sex with every boy that you see. I pray to Odin that you don't. But, I want to help you out as much as I can and to do that, I'm going to give you the tools that I wish my parents had given me when I was your age. I would like to schedule an appointment with our family physician for you to meet with him and to get a prescription for birth control pills. I am too young to be a grandparent. I would much rather wait to see you finish high school and college, find someone you want to spend the rest of your life with, marry them and start a family together.

I am also going to buy a box of condoms and keep them in such-and-such drawer. It will always be stocked. If you choose to have sex, please be smart and use them. As a nurse/student, I have seen the effects that STD's have on a person and I don't want that to happen to you. These are not things to be messed with.

However, if you choose to have unprotected sex, please be smart and have yourself tested frequently. I am more than happy to take you to the Dr periodically for you to be tested. I won't pry nor will I ask questions. I am just interested in your health and well-being."



Fowl language I wouldn't worry about.



"Daughter, I have been reading up on teen drinking and I'll be honest: I'm scared for you. I don't know if you've been drinking outside of the amounts that we give you. I hope not. Alcohol is a drug just like pot, crack, meth, and heroin. It's dangerous, more so for children and teenagers than adults because adults tend to know their limits better than kids do.

If you are partying and drinking alcohol or doing drugs, please promise that you'll NEVER get behind the wheel while intoxicated and that you'll NEVER get into a vehicle being operated by someone who is intoxicated. I've seen too many horrors caused by this combination.

Daughter, please believe me when I say that there is a connection between drinking/doing drugs, wearing revealing clothing and rape. It's very real. I don't tell you this to scare you, but to plant the seed in your mind that it does happen and that this is a very dangerous combination. I don't ever want to get the phone call saying that you've been injured in any way as result of your partying.

Above all of this, if you're EVER in a situation where you are needing a ride home because you've been partying, please call me. I will come get you no matter where you and make sure that you get safely home. This is so very important to me."



Same as above. The positive to weed is that it's MUCH less dangerous than other drugs or alcohol. Truth be told, I would much rather my kids smoke weed than drink. You can't OD and kill yourself smoking weed. So for me, this isn't as big of a deal.



"Daughter, I'm sure you feel that your mother and I are overprotective of you. And you're right. We are. And as lame as it sounds, it because we love you so much and we don't want anything bad to happen to you. We also understand that you have to be able to make your own choices and make your own mistakes. It will happen. I just want to convey that no matter what, your mother and I will be here for you and we'll support you. We want the best for you and we both realize that sometimes the best thing to do is to let you make your mistakes and help you learn from them. So that what we'll do. We are going to try and we are asking for help in relieving our fear that something bad is going to happen. We're willing to loosen the apron strings a little with the hope that you're willing to talk to us about your life. Let us help you."

All in all, Tibber, the best thing that you can do for your daughter is to show her that having open communication will be a positive thing for her. She's going to rebel, but if she doesn't feel like you're going to punish her for everything, she'll start to open up. That's not to say that there shouldn't be consequences, but I don't think there's reason to be a hard ass about it.

Keep the lines of communication open with her. Talk to her about sex, drugs and alcohol. The less taboo a subject becomes, the less of mystery it is to her and the less appealing it will be to her. It might take some time, but she'll start to recognize that she can talk to you about this stuff and she'll be comfortable with it. My guess is that eventually she'll tell her friends "You know, my parents are really cool. I can talk to them about stuff without feeling like they are judging me or trying to force me into a mold." And, my guess is that she'll eventually stop drinking and doing weed because she'll respect you enough that she wouldn't want to worry you.

Feel free to take this or leave it. I don't have any teenagers, but I do have a 15 year-old sister and I'm not afraid to talk to her about this stuff. She needs to hear it from someone that she trusts. Just like your daughter does.

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"To those seaching for truth - not the truth of dogma and darkness but the truth brought by reason, search, examination, and inquiry, discipline is required. For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope." - Thomas Edison

Agreed. 100%. I was a teen once, I know exactly what I would've done if my parents had cracked down on me. The one thing that scares me the most about this is the "pinger" site, I'm not sure how comfortable I am with my daughter reaching out and talking with people who are merely phone numbers... she may know them, and a few of them I got the impression she did know, but there were a few numbers I read through where they would say "hi" and she would say "who's this?" And no real resolution as to who the person was. We do have an instance of her, last year, who the fuck knows what she was thinking, talking to a boy on the phone from arkansas who claimed to be 19. Another fear, other than the rape (and all that entails) and death, is that she'll turn out to be as big an asshated idiot (no common sense at all, and what sense he did have was inclined to assholish) as her sperm-donor. I've tried keeping the communication lines open, telling her I'd like her to approach us about things, and feel free to talk to us, but obviously that's not working.

I'm also inclined to think that a lot of it, drinking smoking, possibly even the sex, is lying to impress and gain acceptance, especialyl considering she had tons of drama in 5th grade after she thought it'd be cool to tell a bunch of friends that she had sex with a boy... and then it went around the entire school and a number of teachers and the principle had to finally intervene. If she didn't learn from that mistake it's possible she's just making the same mistake over again<---that's probably my denial kicking in.

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I'm not sorry, I like to get laid. --Mercury

I took roughly 1/3 of my available vacation for the year to chase 12- and 13-year old boys through the woods. --Mcarp

You very well could be right on all counts.

My inclination is that if you're worried about it, the best thing to do is to be proactive about it. If you want her to trust you, though, and i think you do, the answer is NOT to break her trust by bringing up that you've been 'snooping' around.

I get where you're coming from, though. It's a tough choice. Unfortunately, we can't keep our kids from making stupid choices. We have to be there to help clean up the mess. Just keep talking to her. Doesn't always have to be in a formal settings. Simple inquiries into how her day was or what her plans for the weekend are, etc, will be more than enough, I think.

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"To those seaching for truth - not the truth of dogma and darkness but the truth brought by reason, search, examination, and inquiry, discipline is required. For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope." - Thomas Edison

tib,

IMO the diff between your kid in her teens and you in your teens can be boiled down to 3 basic things:

1. Environment. You are probably right about the Utah stuff. I was raised Mormon but in Texas and I did a lot of "bad" shit....and I would most probably go into a straight up penocostal style rage if I ever thought my kids were doing some of the stuff I did.

2. We didn't have the internetz growing up. We talked to our friends on the phone or in person. There was no written record of what we said and sarcasm and intended bullshit was known when we said it and not lost on the written word days and weeks later by a third party.

3. I don't have sons so I really don't know if this instinct applies only to female children or not but I'm uber-protective of my two girls....I'm talking shot gun by the front door protective. Why? Because I know what it was like to be a hormone raging teenage boy and I know that back then I would have done whatever it took to get laid. As a teen, I never considered consequences and would have refused/dodged any responsibility of my actions.


Jb has offered some sage advice IMO.

The best strategy is to keep lines of communication open enough so that she will heed your advice actively participate in protecting herself when these situations arise.

That is the most reasonable and realistic strategy.


PS: Jb is right about w33d. I wouldn't let my kids smoke it but if I had my "druthers"......

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All views expressed by jahedgpeth are the sole property of jahedgpeth inc. and subject to change by edit without notice.

DH and I have been dealing with a lot of the same shit in the last few years with my now 19-year-old daughter. Our different approaches has caused some extreme issues with our marriage, so my first advice would be to sit down with your wife and discuss how to present a united parenting front. And for the love of Christ, fucking listen to her and take what she has to say into consideration because she actually knows what it is like to be a girl at that age! (sorry, that was more directed at my DH).

We found out my daughter was having sex when she was 16. I thought I had an open enough relationship with her that she would have told me, but I was wrong. We immediately got her into the gyno office and put her on birth control. We also found out that her boyfriend's parents knew that they were having sex, and didn't feel that it was their place to clue us in on this.

Around this same time, I kept finding the window in the guest bedroom open, and we figured that it was the boyfriend sneaking in at night, but I've since found out that she was sneaking out and coming home drunk/stoned on a regular basis.

As far as the dressing like god's slut . . . BTW, WTF does god's slut dress like?? . . . Not worth the fight. Does she even have clothes that would fit in the slut category?

The v-card . . . immediate appointment with gyno. If she's going act like a grown-up, she can learn the joys of being a grown-up. Do not kill the boy, as tempting as it may be. There were two of them that made that decision.

Swearing . . . Kids swear as an act of rebellion. They think it makes them grown-up.

Drinking . . . keep an eye out. I didn't think my daughter was drinking either.

Weed . . . see "drinking" above. Weed is also known to known to retard emotional development.

Remind her that the consequences for drinking and weed can follow her for a very long time! That whole illegal thing really sucks!

Lame and over protective. All of my kids have accused us of that. Our niece posted on Facebook yesterday "My parents are CUNTS!!!!" I'll take lame and over protective anyday!

this made me lawl, thanks for that.

I haven't had a chance to talk with the wifey yet about how we're gonna approach this. I just told DD that until I have a chance to talk with my wife about "something" she has no internet access. When asked "why?" I said, "really, mom and I just need to talk about something first." I'm trying to be a little cryptic, for no real reason that just to build the suspense. Her doctor and I work together on occasion so I'll call her or her office tomorrow and see if she would prefer to give a gyno recommendation or if she'd rather see DD herself. In terms of the other things... I know kids experiment, the only reason I never experimented (with alcohol and weed) was because it was never readily available (I'm not going to say what else is in my closet, but I keep a closer eye on that than I do the hard liquor... and besides since my little sister's stuff ran out--we desired all to partake... in a controlled environment--the local stuff just isn't the same).

It's really the "sex" thing that bothers me the most. Especially since I looked at her not too long ago and said, "[name], it's ok. Your mom and I would prefer if you just come to us if you think it's a possibility. We're not going to judge you, it's a serious decision and kindof a big deal." And she said yes.

HighMaintenance: what has worked? Obviously she doesn't listen to us. I don't think there's anyone, her uncles or cousins, that I trust not to be judgemental enough not to lecture... and she's not receptive to lecture (who is?).

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I'm not sorry, I like to get laid. --Mercury

I took roughly 1/3 of my available vacation for the year to chase 12- and 13-year old boys through the woods. --Mcarp

Honestly, I think taking the initiative to make sure that she's protected will go a long way.

She's not your biologically, right? Regardless of whether she knows this or not or whether you've been there for her whole life or not, this makes a difference. My dad raised me as his from before I was old enough to remember. When I found out that I wasn't his biologically, it changed things for me. It took years for me to feel like I was his son again. Maybe she's feeling the same thing?

Really, don't panic about it.

Reiterate to her that you love her, put the tools she needs to protect herself in place, including the BC and the condoms. Don't mention the condoms again after the conversation, no need to make her feel more embarrassed about it. But monitor the quantity. If they start getting used, you'll know what's going on and that she's taking your advice. Keep them stocked.

She's at the age where she is starting to think she can make big life decisions on her own. I'm sure you remember that stage, right?

The biggest thing I can advise is that you continue to be a point of support and strength. If she feels like you're a point of discipline and criticism, she's going to keep her distance. Again, show a non-threatening interest in her life. Find appropriate times to talk and slip in the reinforcement. When giving her a refill of the BC, just casually say "Hey, you know if you ever want to talk about anything, I'm here to listen." That type of thing.

Just don't blow your cool, you know? You'll get this. Just keep in mind that the next few years will be pure hell.

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"To those seaching for truth - not the truth of dogma and darkness but the truth brought by reason, search, examination, and inquiry, discipline is required. For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope." - Thomas Edison

We had almost the word for word discussion with her about sex that you and your wife did . . .

Honestly, the only thing that worked was DD moving out a few months ago. The last 3 years have been utter hell, with me stuck in the middle of DH and DD. They both have extremely strong personalities and neither will admit when they are wrong. I've tried to be the voice of reason and it just sucks! I've had one, the other and/or both raging pissed off at me because I won't take sides. I've wanted to scream at both of them to grow the fuck up!

The amusing thing is, she is finally realizing that we weren't so bad, other than the boyfriend/sex thing. Especially last week when she took her car to the dealership to find out why it kept telling her to fill the coolant and they wanted $1100 to replace the water pump and timing belt. Yeah, we became her best friends!

I totally agree with what JB has said here:

I suggest you educate her about the media-driven messages she receives from society -- that she is nothing if she is not a sex object. The next few years are crucial; she has to find out what her intrinsic strengths are. Teach her to fight back (you may think she's not listening, but she is) Sports and extracurricular interest groups -- you know what she likes. Pour some money into that.

Meanwhile, watch this trailer for a Sundance film making the rounds:

missrepresentation.org

Some of it is a cry for attention and approval - from you, from others. Often teens (like me) will say that they don't want attention, don't want to talk, etc. But usually, there are some things they do want to talk about that they are interested in.

I agree not flipping out, and not letting fear rule. I'm not saying it's worth ignoring, just that fear based decision making doesn't work. It's not about cracking down, but setting some boundaries is a good idea. Some of your boundaries will still be ignored (I am not looking forward to 14 myself with my kids), but others will not.

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my blog

thanks for all the advice guys. She doesn't know it yet but she and I are gonna go grab breakfast before she goes to school today (no school till 1030 because of some sort of testing). My plan is to make it as comfortable as possible, no judging, but some harder boundaries will be set especially since the ones we had in place were completely ignored, as well as her closing us off in her lines of communication (a lot of that isn't just her fault, I'm rarely home when everyone else is home during the semester).

This is stuff that could affect her future. All her uncles, except one... the most successful one I might add... have some sort of drug record or some sort of legal record from their teenage years, and one will be deported to southeast asia if his country of birth ever decides to drop communism as a governmental form.

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I'm not sorry, I like to get laid. --Mercury

I took roughly 1/3 of my available vacation for the year to chase 12- and 13-year old boys through the woods. --Mcarp

So we've been building up the suspense all evening yesterday and this morning and we get to the restaurant and I opened up with all the "we're not judging you, this is open communication, I do not want this to be a lecture, I want it to be a good give and take between us, you have a voice in this and I want to understand your side of things and what you think about it all. So... you want to talk about the big thing first or the little things?"

She went straight for the big thing and I said, "ok, let's talk about having sex with [asshat]." I'm not sure if one can describe the look of "oh. fuck." But that was the look she gave me. I didn't tell her how I knew, other than I have "sources, none of whom are your friends and that's all matters." She started to tear up a little and I calmly said, again, that we weren't judging her that we wanted to understand it, and that by and large the most important thing we want for all of us in me talking to her is that our communication opens up and she tries to trust us a little more. It went uphill from there. I think we had a good conversation. She talked, she cried a little. I talked, teared up a couple times. This parenting shit is tough.

Ok. Here's what came up in the course of our conversation: she did weed once, with a neighbor girl, who got the weed from her grandmother's stash (I did talk about my only real problem with weed is that when used at younger ages seems to have a direct correlation to moving on to other harder stuff... the stuff that really fucks you up) I asked her what it felt like and she said "it didn't affect me" and I nearly bust up laughing cause that's almost word for word what her mom says after she's... um... done something. She drank alcohol with this same girl, I asked how that was, she said it was alright. Basically we talked about the consequences of certain behaviors (mostly long term) and that we want her to feel comfortable coming to us and talking about it.

About the other girls though. I feel some duty in that we should be conversing with the other parents (grandparent in two cases) about this behavior. About the girls who live with their grandparents... one girls mother was in the CCU for 4 weeks knocking on deaths door for a drug OD. In fact when I was down there on a rotation I had to excuse myself from taking part in her cares because I knew her daughter... and all the nurses I talked to weren't very positive in terms of her prognosis. I don't know where she's at now. The other girl's mother is about the same, except she's never been in the hospital for a drug OD. Where exactly does my duty lie?

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I'm not sorry, I like to get laid. --Mercury

I took roughly 1/3 of my available vacation for the year to chase 12- and 13-year old boys through the woods. --Mcarp