Further Light and Knowledge

Not sure where to start . . . But here goes.

My daughter moved out last fall and her roommate & roommates mother told her that they would help her with her portion of the rent, which hasn't happened. Now my daughter has completely depleted her savings and is trying to work it out with another girl to take over the lease, and move back home. Yes, she has made some very poor decisions and I hold her completely accountable for that.

So, this weekend, the battery on her car died. I made the decision that she is got a new battery for Christmas, so we took care of that today. DH now feels that I took it upon myself to rescue her and told me that I am doing her a disservice and not allowing her to grow up. After much, umm discussion, I said "You really don't know me very well, do you." Apparently, that really hurt him and now, he is very angry with me.

I made that comment because I, as a mother, want my children to be safe - and my daughter walking home from work at 10:00 at night is not safe. I would feel the same about my sons, btw.

So he took it in a way that I did not mean it, and when I tried to explain what I meant it seemed to make matters worse.

Yes, I want my children to learn the lessons of life and become independant adults, but I also think that there are times that a parent need to help, and I think this is one of those times.

Please tell me if what I said is wrong? Am I wrong in buying a battery for my daughter? I am at a total loss.
Every time we argue, it has stemmed from something to do with my daughter. Am I being too over-protective? I am not adverse to criticism, so if I am wrong in this, I am okay with that. Please, give me some advice!

What is right for you, HMM, is a very personal matter. Personally I think you're doing the right thing based on how much I know of the story, which is the brief post you made here. In general, you're right that there are circumstances in which parents need to step in and help their children, whether adult or not, through difficult times or through poor decisions.

Anecdotally I'll relate opposing circumstances from my own life.

I grew up in a TBM home with a father who believed so much in the dogma that he felt that his jobs as a parent were firstly to instruct his children in the ways of the Lord and the proper ways those children were to use their free agency in order to be worthy to go to the Celestial Kingdom and secondly to exact the Lord's physical, mental and emotional punishment for any straying from the true course.

When I first went to college, it was like I had been thrown into a whole new world without guidance - drugs, girls, alcohol and parties every night of the week. All I had ever been told was, "no," "don't," and "shan't." I didn't know how to control myself if I wasn't on that one path of obedience. I ended up kicked off the track team, losing my scholarship, and being thrown out into the world alone with no one to turn to . . . all my own fault, but there was no support and no safety net. It took years for me to grow up and more years for me to learn to be self-sufficient. My father refused to help me at all - with money, advice (other than, "it's your own fault, turn to the Lord"), or even someone nonjudgmental with whom to talk.

Second story:

This year my own son went to college on an athletic scholarship. He called me a month ago from the county jail. He'd been arrested for possession of marijuana and charged with a misdemeanor. He's an adult and what he did was his fault. What I did was hire an attorney, bail him out of jail, and fly to see him. I attended his academic probation hearing with him and discussed the issue with his wrestling coach. He'll get to keep his scholarship, stay on the team, stay in school, and be on a year's probation. He'll do community service and will most likely have the case dismissed after one year of keeping his nose clean.

Some lessons have to be learned by making mistakes, but parents can still be there to help through the worst of it - - and in my opinion, should be.

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- CV Rick
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You are not responsible for his anger. Nor are you responsible for his inability to understand your feelings and communicate with you. You are responsible for handling your feelings and how you treat others, not how they react.
You did not say anything wrong. You own your emotions and have a right to express them.

No.

Your daughter is an adult and the relationship you and your husband have with her should be as parent to adult child. The training wheels are off, but family still supports family. C.V. Rick has it exactly right.

If the only thing you argue over is your daughter, it might help to have a honest discussion of what your husband is afraid of. He seems way too attached to his daughter living up to his standards of independence. And anger is not a healthy response to a parent's disappointment in an adult chiild's decisions. Perhaps he is upset with you because you are not following his script for how everyone in his family should behave, and not joining him in his strategy to "teach your daughter a lesson."

Which brings up the last point. Why are you feeling guilty for doing the right thing? Why must you justify rational behavior to him? What makes his judgment so superior to yours that you must question yourself if he disagrees?

I suggest that you begin to put starch in his underwear.

Jamie

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"Now I troll back to my little cave where we no talk about things we no understand..." Malfalda

"Ummmm. Roadkill."

Can't say it better than CV Rick and oldfart already have.

I wouldn't be where I am today if my parents hadn't bailed me out here and there; at one point, the most recent one, it was in my early 30s.

AND I absolutely agree with ensuring your daughter has a safe car that won't leave her stranded somewhere in the middle of the night. AND I love oldfart's point about your judgment vs your husband's and why you have to defend yourself against his disagreement.

HUGS, good luck.

You can't make anyone understand your meanings behind your words, but it seems like a strange thing to get so worked up over. Maybe tell him you'd like to table the discussion for a while until he cools off. I agree, you did the right thing. Incidentally, is this a child you share, or a step child?

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God's wool be done ~ Colbert
Oh, and 1999!!!!

Thank you all very much for your input.

Ruout, my daughter, his stepdaughter

Rick - I experienced very much the same thing when I first went away to college. All kinds of craziness ensued because I didn't know anything about self-control. I really like how you handled the situation with your son. I hope if we are ever faced with a similar situation, we can do as well as you did!

Jamie - I have to agree that he is upset because I was not following his script and I get pretty pissed off when he expects me to follow that script even if I disagree. Last night I felt he wasn't listening to my perspective. I don't like it when our communication breaks down, since we are usually in agreement on most things. I guess that's where my guilty feelings came in. I guess, even after being out of the Morg for 13 years, I still carry some of the mental conditioning!

Starch is now on my shopping list!

Wry - I think our disagreement on this matter stems from the way we were each brought up. He claims his parents would have never helped him in a situation like this, where my parents would have. My parents were an incredible help to me a few times in my life - when I needed it the most - and it was far beyond just paying for a battery!

Yes. I'm lucky enough to have parents who have been able to step in from time to time in my adulthood (e.g., insurance in grad school; and putting a deposit on an apartment a few years ago so I could get out of a really bad living situation). I'm not a fan of eternal childhoods or 30 year olds sucking their mothers' teats. But I am a fan of family helping each other out from time to time. It's a normal and good thing to do.

Not that you need further convincing, but this story is so much like what happened to me when I was a teen. I had the bad habit of only putting one or two dollars worth of gasoline in my car at a time. That was way back when gas cost less than half a dollar per gallon, so it lasted long enough until I had another spare couple of bucks. One night after work -- about ten o'clock -- my car conked out in the middle of an unlit, practically uninhabited road, miles away from my home.

This was before cell phones, of course. I walked toward the dim light of a house down the road, and knocked on the front door. Heart beating with all the fear from the memories of a half dozen slasher movies, I faced the fact that I would either be a victim of a deranged home owner, or the victim of unseen bandits who lived in the trees along the road that led to home. I gambled on the home owner.

An old woman answered the door, but only cracked it open enough to hear what I had to say. Perhaps there was enough fear in my voice that made her believe my story about running out of gas to calm her own fears. She told me to come in just inside the door to shut out the cold and to be able to reach the phone cord far enough so I could call home and ask someone to come pick me up.

My mother, who answered the phone, never drove the car at night. She passed the phone to my dad, so I asked him if he'd come fetch me. He said no, because it was my fault for not putting enough gas in my car.

I started crying and begging, all while the fearful old woman and her husband stood silently staring at me, waiting for me to make any sudden move. After a few minutes arguing with my dad, I heard my mother threatening him in the background. I forgot what she said, but it was the "I mean it" tone of voice that made him know of dire consequences if he did not rescue me.

My dad finally did come and pick me up after a while; I waited outside so that the old couple could relax. Dad gave me the silent treatment all the way home, and I gave him the silent treatment for months. It took me a long time -- maybe never -- to lose my resentment over almost being sacrificed to "principle" that night.

Oh fer fuck sake. That PISSES ME OFF. WTF?!? You need to learn a lesson during the middle of the night stranded on a dark road??? What horrible judgment on your father's part. I am pissed for you right now. Yes, people need to learn lessons, but we are humans, we don't have to learn things are hot by touching the fucking burner, we can be taught by other caring humans. Making people learn everything the hard way as though that would build more character is the biggest fucking load of shite ever.

I 100% agree with your mother in this particular situation. As a parent it is our duty to teach our kids to be independent functioning members of society but with that comes the responsibility to pick them up when they fall down on the way.

Question just for curiosity sake: Did you change any of your fueling routine after that night?

(BTW, I had to laugh at the first part of your story. My wife did the exact same thing when she was a teenager. To this day, she will drive to and from work with the yellow light on/gauge on empty because "there's still gas in there". It makes me crazy and I'll be the one dropping what I'm doing to go take her gas...but then she puts up with me so I still come out ahead.)

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All views expressed by jahedgpeth are the sole property of jahedgpeth inc. and subject to change by edit without notice.

Wow, MrsD. What a pile of crap! I think I'd still be pretty resentful over that one.

Wry, one of my sons is the type that did have to learn that the burner is hot by touching it. One time, I had turned the burner on while I filled a pan with water. I saw him watching as it turned red, so I said "Don't touch that, it's hot!" He immdiately stuck his finger on it. Same thing with him and our dog . . . "Quit bugging the dog, she's going to bite you." Trip to the emergency room 1/2 an hour later. Thank God he finally realized we knew what we were talking about when we caution him against doing stupid shit! Our pediatrician told us one time "if I didn't know you guys so well, I would have to turn you in for child abuse" because practically every time we'd call for an appointment, it was some sort of injury this son had inflicted on himself.

For all of my parents' faults, and there are one or two, they (and my dad, especially) always seemed to step in when I really needed a helping hand. MrsD, I was in a similar situation to yours. I got stuck out in the mountains, in late winter, with some friends who thought it might be a good idea to drive off-road after dark (I know, I know thawing snow, mud, stuck vehicle). Luckily, a man on a motorcycle (whose son I knew) saw us walking on the road back into town. He gave me a lift as far as a payphone where I called my dad at some ungodly hour after midnight. I just said to him, "Dad, I'm in a bit of trouble. I need your help. I've never had to ask you for something like this and I doubt if I ever will, again." He drove up, phoned for a tow truck, got my 'friends' unstuck and helped us all out of a jam that could have turned very ugly. He didn't patronise me and there weren't any lectures. I learned a good lesson about not getting myself into bad situations willingly. I also learned a good lesson about loyalty and helping your family out with things. My dad taught me a lot of good lessons in life, without ever saying a word.

Funny how relationships can go okay, but kids can wreak havoc. It's true, what one person thinks is fair and justified, another thinks is too much. Still others think it's wrong to take care of yourself instead of depleting everything to take care of family members (MO, sometimes the mormon social norm, particularly for women).

My assumption is that you are not hurting financially, physically or emotionally for helping your daughter. If you are, that would be something to discuss. There's a big difference between helping another adult out with an emergency like a car battery, and consistently working overtime, bailing them out. Or making excuses like "I can't do that because my adult child needs my help"....it's one thing if they are not fully capable, but another if they are.

There is a line there, and it is very tricky. There's a point sometimes where the help is no longer helpful, the person doesn't learn to be self-sufficient because mom or dad always bails them out. But my parents as well were 18 and out...at times to a fault.

After figuring out the things that you will (and won't) do for her, I recommend discussing with your husband. What are his expectations and fears?

Finally, I believe some LDS families are independent to a fault. Everything is so black and white...one car battery means you are feeding the child's drug habit. That's certainly not the case with most adult children...there is nuance there.

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my blog

It seriously warms my heart to hear the compassionate parent stories. My dad had that "Beautiful Mind" syndrome where human relationships don't make logical sense to him. The sad thing is that I didn't realize that was what was going on until I was in my 40s and spending lots of money on therapy -- ha ha.

Yes, I do fill my gas tank now, but not because of what dad did. It is because I never want to be so dependent on somebody's kindness the way I was back then. Leftofcenter, I try to be more like your dad now that I'm out of the church and thinking on my own. I don't lecture my kids about mistakes; I realize they have enough sensibility to know when they've made them. I only hope they come to me when they need help now and then, which I know they'll only do when they have no other option.

ETA: I keep thinking of the wise and wonderful people here on FLAK, and how they have all made mistakes -- small and colossal -- and have turned out to be so thoughtful. How debilitating it would be if we all still held the guilt and shame inside ourselves that the church uses to hold progressive thinking hostage.

I can't even see straight I'm so livid at that bullshit.