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 Post subject: Serious question
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:05 pm 
Election Made Sure

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Location: Redneck Riviera (formerly domiciled in the Third World Country know as Mississippi)
I have a grandaughter who will be eighteen in March and is a senior in high school. Her maturity and attitude have improved to an astounding extent in the last year (from failing grades to straight A's, major upgrade in who she hangs out with, better family relations). She has begun working in the office and is doing pretty good. Her plans have been to go to community college at least part time.

Here's the question. I doubt if anyone could today get the kind of college and graduate education I got for anywhere near the price (Second son came close; might have made it debt-free when he got his Ph D in macromolecular engineering). If you don't know what you want to do IMHO college is no longer the place to find out. Adjunct professors worried about their day jobs and graduate students worried about their graduate classes/dissertations do not make the most effective teachers, and that's pretty much all you get these days in the first two years without going to a disgustingly expensive school.

There are several licensed professions in my office and the lowliest ones provide a small but decent income ($25--35k), allowing for an apartment, a car, and some quality beach time in a year or two.

So what's the better path? Higher education in the Brave New World of commercialized education, or a steady job yielding work experience and leading to a professional opportunity?

Maybe I have rigged the question by the way I have formed it, so that's what I want input about. How much does maturity have to do with it? How valuable is the college experience for one to "find themselves?"

I know all about working in a family business, but how much of a drawback would that really be? (She would be working for/with both family and non-family managers.)

Oh Founts of Knowledge, How say you?

Jamie

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 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:50 am 
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Community College can be a cheap alternative to exploring scholastic interests.

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 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:57 am 
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Why People Go To College:

1) Instrumentalism: The research shows overwhelmingly that this is the main reason why. The most common reason kids go to school now is "to get a job," i.e., the labor market has evolved in such a way that, in general, you must have a BA/BS to get a middle-class, professional job. There's a lot of history, policy, and development of global capitalism behind this shift, but I won't bore you with all that. The difficulty here is that governmental policy and higher education administration has not only capitulated to the market model, but is striving to reorganize higher education into a glorified job training program, complete with de-professionalized teachers who "deliver" information via standardized curricula that are designed and mass-produced. So you get a double whammy: students who see education as a means to an economic end, and a compliant administration/state government that accedes to market values such as standardization, rationilzation, massification, etc.

2) Socratic: To learn/explore the world. I have a handful of students who feel this way in every class, but they are a definite minority, sometimes absent from the room (or at least afraid to say who they are). The research on college undergrads show that this reason for going to college has been steadily declining in numbers since the 1970s. For the Instrumentalists, the Socratic folk (and those professors who are also in this camp) are "unrealistic," "idealistic," "dinosaurs," "out of touch," "nerds," etc. These students can still find their niche on most campuses, and if they are willing to look for it, they will find a lot of fulfillment in their learning. These people are best served by liberal arts college ($$$$$) and research universities, where the environments are still run as if universities are producers of knowledge rather than producers of workers.

3) Oprah's Own: To find themselves, figure out what they really want. I have been teaching university for 17 years and I have NEVER heard a student say this. They could have been lying, of course; but you'd think I'd hear this at least sometimes if it were in the mix. I think this is a Baby Boomer fantasy that really has nothing to do with what drives kids to school these days; it really derives from a particular time and place in American history and assumes an amount of leisure and financial freedom that simply doesn't exist anymore. In fact, when I went to college in 1988, none of my friends were talking about this either. Now you may argue that it is an inevitable EFFECT of going to college, but not the motivation for going.

Is It Worth It?

Really, the answer to this question depends on your values and what you want. There are many things to consider.

• In general (there are exceptions, but fewer and fewer), to be in the professional-managerial (upper middle) class, you must have a BA/BS. There are also lower-middle (e.g., teachers) and working class (e.g., law enforcement) that are now also requiring college educations for employment. Statistically, life outcomes across the board (health, income, home-ownership, happiness, etc.) are higher with a college degree (minimum of Bachelors; Associates do not show the same dramatic increase in life outcomes).

• Public higher education has been dramatically defunded since the anti-tax revolution of the late 1970s. For example, the CSU system was free when I was born; today, my students pay roughly 50% of the cost of their education; in the CSU, in adjusted dollars, in 1961 when the system was created, the state spent nearly 11K per student per year, whereas today it pays just over 3500 per student per year. This means that a massive proportion of education expenses have been displaced onto students, who (as I"m sure you know) leave college with huge student loan debts, which more or less financially handicap them for life.

• The defunding has indeed changed the structure of the professoriate, so that in mid-tier public universities, upwards of 65% of courses are taught by itinerate teachers working multiple campuses with low pay and no say in their working conditions or the curriculum of the departments they teach in. There have definitely been impacts on students, but as someone who was both a graduate instructor and an adjunct before getting (miraculously) a tenure track job, I can say that the majority of those teachers are doing so because they are dedicated teachers. Some of the best teachers you have may be among graduate students/Ph.D. candidates and/or adjuncts/temp teachers. The labor ethics of the issue are connected to but different from the classroom impact. Unfortunately, because the quality of teaching remains relatively high, this gives administrators ammo to "prove" that it's okay to eliminate full-time faculty. I could go on for hours about this difficult and frustrating topic.

• Public Research Universities are often the largest and easiest to get lost in; but they are also often the most vibrant places to learn. They can be incredibly expensive (see: the UC system).

• The workhorses of the public system are the middle-tier "teaching" universities. They have many problems. On one hand, the promise to be financially accessible to students whose families may be struggling financially, or for people who are the first in their family to go to college. But they tend to have the lowest budgets (even lower than community colleges, usually), the most overworked professors, and the culture on campus tends to be the most intensely "instrumental." The culture of the students tends to be "quickest way out" and "least work possible", and the overworked professors are often doing everythign possible to keep their workload manageable (when I teach well, with pedagogically sound and committed methods, I work about 60 hours a week with my four course load). In my experience, after teaching at two such universities, I come out conflicted: on one hand, I am dedicated to the social justice mission of such institutions; on the other hand, at least in California, it is the lowest quality public higher education available in the state.

• Private liberal arts (4 year) colleges, in my experience, are the best learning environments. They are still dominated by instrumental students and administrations, but they fight to maintain the learning enviornment of a "socratic" motivation. My one year teaching at a Jesuit college was the happiest in my career. It was EXACTLY what I thought being a college professor would be. I had relationships with students. Even my freshmen were excited to be there. I had support to research, allowing me to keep up in my fields and stay excited about knowledge and learning; and my teaching load was light enough that I could really really teach creatively and effectively. Unfortunately, this is the most expensive option, stunningly so. Many places have rigorous financial aid packages based on incomes, etc., so I wouldn't dismiss them out of hand; and the catholic colleges are often excellent and liberal and significantly cheaper. Steer clear of the Little Ivies (e.g., Williams or Brynn Mahr) unless you're a genius, rich, and ready for a brutally competitive environment.

• Avoid for-profit school at all costs (e.g., Phoenix, DeVry, the Arts-Institutes, etc.). They are completely exploitive and are not worth it at all. They are driven by the profit motive in ways that extorts money from students. When I taught at a for-profit Art Institute of California, my students were moved through courses whether they could do the work or not; students were accepted who had no academic abilities for the general education core and/or no artistic talent; and they left their bachelor's degree with more debt than I had after four degrees.

If you choose the school that is right for you, I think higher ed remains "worth it" for both instrumental and socratic motivations. But you have to go in with the eyes open and make a conscious choice. One thing I would say, as someone who wrangles special snowflakes all day long, if your granddaughter is not committed to doing the work for a degree, it is simply too expensive. In other words, if she needs to "find herself," or if she doesn't know what she wants, then she should wait. JMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:01 am 
Election Made Sure

Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:35 pm
Posts: 101
Location: Catonsville, MD
I still hear the stat that college increases the life income by a million dollars. I've also heard that working on internships during college helps increase the likelyhood of getting a good position after graduation. At this point, I am still working towards sending both my kids to college when the time comes (they are both fairly young right now). Starting in community college for the first two years is a good idea. I know of one community college near by that has a program with an Ivy League school so that a good student can attend the first two years at the community college and then finish off at the Ivy League school.

Good luck to your granddaughter.


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 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:14 am 
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Posts: 1010
Location: Baja Az
I think finding themselves at a community college while working is the way to go. That also depends on the local community college, too. I am very impressed with our local CC. University of Arizona students tend to take a lot of their lower to mid level courses at Pima CC because the class sizes are much smaller and the credits are directly transferred.

Unless she is really into the family business, she may change her mind on her career, and if she has invested too much time into working, it is very hard to get back into the school thing.

All of my kids have worked at my husbands business, but have chosen other paths at this point. We would really like one of them to take it over in a few years when DH is ready to retire, but we're doubting that is going to happen.

I really think that nowadays, it's best just to get that degree ASAP. The company I work for won't even look at a resume if there isn't a degree included, unless it's for an hourly or very low level admin position. I was very lucky getting hired and then eventually promoted into the position I'm in without a degree. I've been working on getting that degree now, but it really sucks being 43 in a class of 18 year olds!


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 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:08 am 
Election Made Sure

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Location: Redneck Riviera (formerly domiciled in the Third World Country know as Mississippi)
jahedgpeth wrote:
Community College can be a cheap alternative to exploring scholastic interests.

Realistically I think she will end up taking a half load at CC while working about 32 hours/wk for a year or two. She did not really pay much attention to school until recently and this might be a good way to "test the waters" with some courses other than the required core.

Jamie

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 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:28 am 
Election Made Sure

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Posts: 1052
Location: Redneck Riviera (formerly domiciled in the Third World Country know as Mississippi)
HighMaintenanceMe wrote:
Unless she is really into the family business, she may change her mind on her career, and if she has invested too much time into working, it is very hard to get back into the school thing.

She really is not into anything yet. I think that she is processing what it means to be responsible for forming your own goals and identity on top of looking at an epically shitty job market.
HighMaintenanceMe wrote:
All of my kids have worked at my husbands business, but have chosen other paths at this point. We would really like one of them to take it over in a few years when DH is ready to retire, but we're doubting that is going to happen.

My son owns the business now after taking a break to establish that he could be successful in a range of business endeavors.
Grandaughter would have three career options: try another career, get her professional credentials and take a job with another firm, or stay with the family firm.
HighMaintenanceMe wrote:
I really think that nowadays, it's best just to get that degree ASAP. I've been working on getting that degree now, but it really sucks being 43 in a class of 18 year olds!

Good luck on the degree! Going straight through full time is the common wisdom, but I have misgivings about it.

Jamie

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 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:34 am 
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Location: Redneck Riviera (formerly domiciled in the Third World Country know as Mississippi)
I am Laura wrote:
I still hear the stat that college increases the life income by a million dollars. I've also heard that working on internships during college helps increase the likelyhood of getting a good position after graduation. At this point, I am still working towards sending both my kids to college when the time comes (they are both fairly young right now). Starting in community college for the first two years is a good idea. I know of one community college near by that has a program with an Ivy League school so that a good student can attend the first two years at the community college and then finish off at the Ivy League school.

Good luck to your granddaughter.

I'm skeptical about the income figures, having taught both labor economics and statistics! Some states like Illinois and Texas experimented with "capstone universities" that have no underclassmen and take students from the junior college system. You make good points. What's the Ivy League school?

Jamie

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 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:05 am 
Election Made Sure

Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:14 am
Posts: 1052
Location: Redneck Riviera (formerly domiciled in the Third World Country know as Mississippi)
cumom wrote:
Why People Go To College:

1) Instrumentalism: The research shows overwhelmingly that this is the main reason why. The most common reason kids go to school now is "to get a job,"

I agree that this has always been the main reason for attending college, followed closely by social reasons.
cumom wrote:
2) Socratic: To learn/explore the world.

I'm glad to hear there are a few such students around. While their numbers may be in decline, I think that in truth they were always a small group. They just went from the rote party line to "quaint".
cumom wrote:
3) Oprah's Own: To find themselves, figure out what they really want. I have been teaching university for 17 years and I have NEVER heard a student say this... I think this is a Baby Boomer fantasy that really has nothing to do with what drives kids to school these days; it really derives from a particular time and place in American history and assumes an amount of leisure and financial freedom that simply doesn't exist anymore.

I saw a few in the Seventies while teaching. I think you have a great insight that this attitude stems from the ethos of a specific era. I need to kick this around; did this originate in post WWII confidence and begin to fade in the Vietnam stalemate?
cumom wrote:
Is It Worth It?

Really, the answer to this question depends on your values and what you want.


Your observations of different types of higher education are spot on!
I try very hard to not live vicariously through my children and grandchildren. At the same time each time a child was born in the family I found my thoughts during the pregnancy turning to what I wanted for the child (I'm doing it now with the next grandchild due in early July!). Each will be a unique human being who will find their own path in life. More than anything else, I want them to be happy, not rich, or successful, or well-regarded by others. I am convinced that happiness is a function of heredity, brain chemistry, and environment; but it also is to a remarkable extent a learned behavior.

I may not have an "answer" but I have a guide. A life well lived is all the justification we will ever have.

Jamie

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 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:59 pm 
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Location: Catonsville, MD
oldfart wrote:
I am Laura wrote:
I still hear the stat that college increases the life income by a million dollars. I've also heard that working on internships during college helps increase the likelyhood of getting a good position after graduation. At this point, I am still working towards sending both my kids to college when the time comes (they are both fairly young right now). Starting in community college for the first two years is a good idea. I know of one community college near by that has a program with an Ivy League school so that a good student can attend the first two years at the community college and then finish off at the Ivy League school.

Good luck to your granddaughter.

I'm skeptical about the income figures, having taught both labor economics and statistics! Some states like Illinois and Texas experimented with "capstone universities" that have no underclassmen and take students from the junior college system. You make good points. What's the Ivy League school?

Jamie


I believe it was Harvard.


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 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:27 pm 
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I am Laura wrote:
oldfart wrote:
I am Laura wrote:
I still hear the stat that college increases the life income by a million dollars. I've also heard that working on internships during college helps increase the likelyhood of getting a good position after graduation. At this point, I am still working towards sending both my kids to college when the time comes (they are both fairly young right now). Starting in community college for the first two years is a good idea. I know of one community college near by that has a program with an Ivy League school so that a good student can attend the first two years at the community college and then finish off at the Ivy League school.

Good luck to your granddaughter.

I'm skeptical about the income figures, having taught both labor economics and statistics! Some states like Illinois and Texas experimented with "capstone universities" that have no underclassmen and take students from the junior college system. You make good points. What's the Ivy League school?

Jamie


I believe it was Harvard.

I'm not saying it's not true, but I'm highly dubious of an Ivy taking transfers from a community college. They make it nearly impossible to transfer from other research universities, let alone a CC.

I looked up some stats in my inequality books, and sociologists don't give monetary numbers for how much more. Rather, the stat that I've found in three different sources is that, on average, someone with a BA/BS will earn 30% more than someone without (including AA degrees). This is an average, so of course there are exceptions. Also interesting is that only 22%-25% of Americans have bachelors degrees; about 89% of graduating HS seniors go on to higher education, but less than 30% of them stick it out to graduation. Somehow that proportion of BAs/BSes goes way up by the time Americans are in their 40s, to over 40%. I'm not quite sure how that works, so I'm trying to track down the research that produced that stat.


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 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:28 am 
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By coincidence, this very interesting column appeared in my inbox this evening. I thought some of you might enjoy it as well:
What Is College For? Part 2


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 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:19 am 
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Quote:
So what's the better path? Higher education in the Brave New World of commercialized education, or a steady job yielding work experience and leading to a professional opportunity?



During my entire life, I was always an advocate of as much formal education and as many degrees as possible. I worked hard to gain acceptance to a highly selective private college in southern California, then worked hard to finish my graduate degree at a public university. Likewise, my husband and I strongly encouraged our son to finish his undergraduate degree at a public university.

Then we realized, ( as you did), that a formal education sometimes makes little or no difference in the levels of happiness or success in the workforce. Our son graduated with a degree in English and very much wanted a ( low paying) job as a journalist, but there were none to be had. So, he took some classes in graphic design and web development. He landed a job in the tech sector in San Francisco in his mid 20's, which started out paying close to six figures. Even in a bad economy, the tech sector is hiring in the Bay Area. He's very happy and was just promoted to a project manager.

The usefulness of a degree somewhat depends upon what the labor market requires. Formal education has little to do with it. My son will never use his English degree ( except that he can write copy for the websites he develops, which saves time). He's much more successful in the tech field. He's married and now has an infant daughter- our first grandchild.

We just set up a college fund for her; but if she would rather attend art school, start her own business at 18, or even spend 4 years traveling the world, we will encourage her to follow her dream. It was a major shift for me to decide that college is not so useful, nor does it necessarily lead to much success in a volatile economy, or even bring a sense of fulfillment. I don't push family members into attending college anymore.

Good topic, Jamie.


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 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:58 pm 
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Wonderment wrote:
During my entire life, I was always an advocate of as much formal education and as many degrees as possible...but if [grandaughter] would rather attend art school, start her own business at 18, or even spend 4 years traveling the world, we will encourage her to follow her dream. It was a major shift for me to decide that college is not so useful, nor does it necessarily lead to much success in a volatile economy, or even bring a sense of fulfillment. I don't push family members into attending college anymore.


Something came back to me that I have heard from a number of people in a number of different ways. Once you are in college, your high school class standing and GPA are irrelevant; but what you learned (not just subject matter, but also work habits, social attitudes, etc) are everything. In graduate school the whole thing recycles again. When you get a first job (with or without the "sheepskin effect") nobody cares about your college experience after about six months; what matters is your job performance. There is no substitute for constant learning and growing. And that is only likely to occur when you are happy at what you are doing.

And glad to her your son's story!

Jamie

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 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:23 pm 
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It was never really a guarantee, but I think a college education is much less of a guarantee than it was. It's not a simple investment.

I think your granddaughter should follow what she wants to do - having a personal investment is critical. My advice - I hope she establishes credit somehow. Either through loans or a low balance credit card. I've known a couple of people who did not have any student loans or establish credit in college - and had no credit upon graduation (couldn't rent an apartment).

It's true, most employers look for a degree, some to hire, others to move anywhere. But investing in a degree she wants is important. The college experience (living on your own, without your parents) is great, but is it worth $60,000 or more?

The president keeps talking about more people going to college, but I think it's important to be clear about who is going to college and what the result will be. Critical thinking is great, but is it worth living at the poverty level for 20 years (due to student loans)? I think it's important to encourage people to follow their talents and intelligence (keeping in mind the market and what positions are out there).

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