Further Light and Knowledge

Apparently, recently the Lard's university had a panel of four students who identify as gay or bisexual. They were characterized as "strong" for having been honest about who they are but refusing to give into their "desires" that they "struggle with."

http://www.queerty.com/brigham-young-universitys-gay-mormon-panel-draws-crowds-questions-20120405/

Ugh. One of my best friends from high school is gay and still going through these mental gymnastics, to the point where he says he is not gay, but merely suffers from same sex attraction disorder. Meanwhile, an open-minded, generous person has turned into something right wing and judgmental to the point where I barely recognize him anymore. I keep waiting for him to come to his senses, but I'm afraid he's going to waste his whole life in service to this lie.

This is the most messed up part of a very disturbing article:



The only good thing about this piece is that BYU students sound much more open-minded than they were 20 years ago, when I had roommates who would never have dared utter a damn or hell, but happily used the word fag about fifty times a day.

Holy shit. Watch this now. I'm writhing around in pain. I'm going to have to go for a walk down to the dildo store on the corner to get that out of my mind. You know, I left this damn cult 16 years ago and this just dragged me right back to where I was when I was 24. I suppose I should see this as "progress" (when I was a freshman at BYU in 88, you could still "choose" to have aversion therapy done to you in Kimball Tower for god's sake). But I just feel it as more insidious, like now they're all being nice to you...while still teaching you to hate yourself and to live with emotional and social burdens that are inhumanly cruel.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym0jXg-hKCI[/youtube]

Boo for broken embedding:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym0jXg-hKCI

Painful, but doesn't it seem obvious that the tide is going to wash the bigotry away. Once people are openly calling themselves gay while filming on BYU campus, it seems that it's only a matter of time.

And 90% of those people will be out of the church within ten years. Once you're out of the closet, how could you not eventually explode from cognitive dissonance?

ETA: I don't know much about the "It Gets Better" meme, but this strikes me as a hijacking of the theme, wherein people are encouraging others to stay with their abusers. Or am I misreading this?

I agree with you about the tide turning. Someone else said earlier that this is a net positive. The only beef I'd have with that is that by making it "safe" to be out, it creates a cushion of "niceness" around what is actually a deep hatred. It's containment through kindness and compassion. But I definitely also see how different this is than when I was at BYU. I remember sitting on the lawn in front of the honors building with a guy from my mission who was gay, and him explaining to me why he was going to get married to his fiancée. It upsets me nearly 20 years later, remembering him sobbing as he convinced himself it was the right thing to do.

The problem is really a personal one, that my wounds are still there underneath my sarcastic bitter exterior. And when I hear those kids talking like that, while standing on campus, all I can think of is either a) my own pain at that age or b) their pain (evident in many of their voices) which then triggers all the memories.

In my day to day life, I just don't have to deal with this anymore, so when it gets brought up it tends to hit harder than perhaps it should. Also, I'm a bit sensitive because I had a kid blow up at me yesterday in class for assignment an Allen Ginsburg poem where he talks about gay sex (for about 2 lines out of 500).


Yes. Emphatically. It gets better by coming out and agreeing to the terms set by your abusers. Blech.

Also, regarding your friend in your previous comment, that's really the crime of the church. Despite their exterior niceness, they still pathologize and medicalize homosexuality; it's a disease that can be cured through hard work and professional therapy. This creates such a mindfuck—self hatred, self-disgust, self-aversion—that it's no wonder your friend lashes out in hatred, anger, and fear at the world.

A gay culture and news blog has sort of come up with the same analysis here.

I find the video pretty damned hopeful actually. Yeah, it is way too slow. Yeah the church doesn't get to forget its past and the massive fucking damage it has done. But this honestly doesn't feel like it is being driven by the church. This feels like BYU is being forced to acknowledge that the younger generations in the church don't see homosexuality like their older generations do. I find it hopeful that there is progress, even if it is way too slow. What it feels like to me is the church getting dragged kicking and screaming into the future.

I do have to admit though.......I just want to find all those kids and grab them by the shoulders and tell them it really can get better....you just have to leave the church far behind.

Just not as cleverly as we did.

I watched a Dan Savage interview with Keith Olbermann shortly after my last response. Savage made an interesting point that rang true because it has a lot of parallels with coming out about disbelief, as well. He believes that many of the most hostile anti-gay Christians are older, closeted homosexuals who have made a decision to deny their sexuality for the sake of religion, family, etc., and so it is very upsetting to see others enjoying the kinds of freedoms that they never enjoyed. After a lifetime of self-denial and shame, it seems unfair, at least on a subconscious level.

Hm. The original article mentions a "virulently anti-gay group called 'Standard of Liberty'". Anybody know what that is?

_________________
The apple cannot be stuck back on the Tree of Knowledge; once we begin to see, we are doomed and challenged to seek the strength to see more, not less. ~ Arthur Miller

"Same sex attraction disorder?" Bullshit by any other name still smells the same. Hopefully he'll come around and accept that he's gay, and that that's okay.

Peace,

L

These kids are brave, IMO, but also young, hopeful, and naive. As you say, there's a very good chance many of them will leave the Church eventually. With time, they will come to realize there is still a lot of bigotry in the Church, have more time to think things through, and decide if they really want to be part of this.

I won't trust BYU, or feel comfortable until there is acknowledgment of the electro-shock therapy for gays. I'm sickened that this happened. That past needs to be acknowledged and apologized for.

But these are students, just trying to get by, to make sense of their identity is the face of this monolithic institution ( one that promoted and sponsored this inhumane "therapy").

It is important for all LDS members to be aware that GLBTQ people are not the evil other, they/we are everywhere, even at BYU.

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my blog

Dr. Floater says they're so insecure about their own sexuality that they "fight" to cover the fear that dwells inside.

Some of them will eventually come out, finally overcoming their inability or refusal to understand and then respect who they really are, then they'll discover peace and move on with their lives advocating instead acceptance, understanding, and all the other cheezes love shit that the ultimate magic man spoke about.

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It's good to talk about these things and to sort out the messed up mindfuck we were in.
- SIMS

I believe Brother Friberg painted a heavily phallic version of the BoM's "standard of liberty"



Maybe that's what they're trying to get at.

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I'm not sorry, I like to get laid. --Mercury

I took roughly 1/3 of my available vacation for the year to chase 12- and 13-year old boys through the woods. --Mcarp

Yes, I get the allusion, but are they a BYU-approved student group? Or are they some kind of loose cannon vigilante bunch? Or are they not a student group at all? What does "virulently anti-gay" mean in this context? I'd never heard of "anti-gay" groups being officially sanctioned at BYU (or otherwise for that matter) and wondered what the story was on this specific group.

_________________
The apple cannot be stuck back on the Tree of Knowledge; once we begin to see, we are doomed and challenged to seek the strength to see more, not less. ~ Arthur Miller