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 Post subject: Dumbledore's been outed
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:39 am 
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Oh, boy, this news is going to send my SIL into a major tizzy.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:04 am 
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belaja wrote:
Oh, boy, this news is going to send my SIL into a major tizzy.


My theory is that Rowling had a big drunken night down the pub with her mates and they were all coming up with ways to take the piss out of Americans. Et voila! A drunken bet was born: Can you actually get those savages to BURN YOUR BOOKS!???!

:twisted:

Either that, or the character's just gay. :shrug:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:45 am 
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I just saw this on another board. The Anti-HP crowd is going to have a field day with this one. I must say that the intense relationship that Dumbledore had with Grindewald struck me as odd while reading Book 7, but it never really entered my mind that Dumbledore was gay. I guess I always thought of Dumbledore as asexual. :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:10 pm 
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Pottermom wrote:
I just saw this on another board. The Anti-HP crowd is going to have a field day with this one. I must say that the intense relationship that Dumbledore had with Grindewald struck me as odd while reading Book 7, but it never really entered my mind that Dumbledore was gay. I guess I always thought of Dumbledore as asexual. :wink:


Well, he *is* old.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:28 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:00 pm 
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[Cross-posted from my blog:]

J.K. Rowling revealed yesterday that her character Dumbledore, erstwhile Hogwarts headmaster, is gay. [Hat tip to Belaja.] Leaving aside the politically delicate act of outing, Rowling's revelation puts to rest a couple years of rumors concerning the bearded sage, and surely will bring up all sort of pedophilic panic among those already predisposed against the Satanic wizarding world (i.e., Christian wingnuts).

I have a mixed response to this revelation. On one hand, I still have that problem where I crave representation in the larger culture, and so I immediately started rethinking everything I remember about the character through the books. And I felt a bond to Rowling. Apparently, Dumbledore's life-love was the evil Gindelwald, because of whom he almost destroyed his remaining family (Book 7). Rowling says that his love for Gindelwald was disillusioning about love, that love can blind you to what is right. And that it was the great tragedy of Dumbledore's life.

Dumbeldore as broken, betrayed aging single lonely gay man. The other side of my response was irritation and disappointment. There are two tropes in Western literature going back at least to the Victorians of homosexual male characters. First, the psychopathic, often homicidal, mentally imbalanced. In the narrative, he is usually the foil against which the normal or good men are measured. Think: Talented Mr. Ripley. Even E.M. Forster's characters in Maurice border on this trope. Second, and the one followed by Rowling, the single outcast, usually pathetic and pitiable, incapable of love, or only finding impossible love; but usually functioning as a care-taker or guide or at worst the comic relief for the straight people in the narrative. These men are usually not explicitly homosexual. Think: Henry James' The American. Rowling has followed this trope, albeit a step up, where Dumbledore has an important career and is the center of the fight against darkness. So all that unused relational energy can be transfered into a career!

So while I understand Rowling's argument that her books are a "prolonged argument for tolerance," and I think she had good intentions, in 2007 we are far beyond the time when a sympathetic gay character should be closeted and sexless (and surely Ian McLellan has proved that older gay men are still vital and sexual). Given where the UK is right now in the integration of gay men and women into British society, this is a step backward. I don't want to be too harsh, here, but ultimately Dumbledore's narrative turns into sycophantism: How do you write a gay character in a children's book without freaking the hell out of their conservative retrograde parents? What would Dumbledore have been like had he had a partner (dead or living), if he'd discussed love with Harry or Hermione at appropriate moments? Would it have undermined his position at the center of Goodness in the book? No. If Rowling's intention is an argument for tolerance, it is a weak whimper of a statement, at least where gay men are concerned.

To be honest, my bets for a gay character were on Sirius. My feeling was that he had been in love with James (Gary Oldman's plunging neckline can't help but throw us back to the go-go gay 1970s). But had Rowling outed Sirius last night, we would have been left in exactly the same conundrum. A lonely, single gay man, loveless and pitiable.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:48 pm 
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cumom wrote:
Pottermom wrote:
I just saw this on another board. The Anti-HP crowd is going to have a field day with this one. I must say that the intense relationship that Dumbledore had with Grindewald struck me as odd while reading Book 7, but it never really entered my mind that Dumbledore was gay. I guess I always thought of Dumbledore as asexual. :wink:


Well, he *is* old.


Actually, he's dead. :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:13 pm 
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cumom wrote:
[Cross-posted from my blog:]

J.K. Rowling revealed yesterday that her character Dumbledore, erstwhile Hogwarts headmaster, is gay. [Hat tip to Belaja.] Leaving aside the politically delicate act of outing, Rowling's revelation puts to rest a couple years of rumors concerning the bearded sage, and surely will bring up all sort of pedophilic panic among those already predisposed against the Satanic wizarding world (i.e., Christian wingnuts).

I have a mixed response to this revelation...


Good post, cumom. I must say I have a mixed response as well. Aside from being surprised, I felt that it was somewhat of a cop-out. How are kids going to learn tolerance for homosexuality when she didn't put that idea explicitly in the books? This is just one of those many details that she had about all of the charcters in her head but never put it into the text, like the fact that Neville married Hannah Abbot--interesting to know but really does little to change the story.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:20 pm 
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cumom wrote:
[Cross-posted from my blog:]

J.K. Rowling revealed yesterday that her character Dumbledore, erstwhile Hogwarts headmaster, is gay. [Hat tip to Belaja.] Leaving aside the politically delicate act of outing, Rowling's revelation puts to rest a couple years of rumors concerning the bearded sage, and surely will bring up all sort of pedophilic panic among those already predisposed against the Satanic wizarding world (i.e., Christian wingnuts).

I have a mixed response to this revelation. On one hand, I still have that problem where I crave representation in the larger culture, and so I immediately started rethinking everything I remember about the character through the books. And I felt a bond to Rowling. Apparently, Dumbledore's life-love was the evil Gindelwald, because of whom he almost destroyed his remaining family (Book 7). Rowling says that his love for Gindelwald was disillusioning about love, that love can blind you to what is right. And that it was the great tragedy of Dumbledore's life.

Dumbeldore as broken, betrayed aging single lonely gay man. The other side of my response was irritation and disappointment. There are two tropes in Western literature going back at least to the Victorians of homosexual male characters. First, the psychopathic, often homicidal, mentally imbalanced. In the narrative, he is usually the foil against which the normal or good men are measured. Think: Talented Mr. Ripley. Even E.M. Forster's characters in Maurice border on this trope. Second, and the one followed by Rowling, the single outcast, usually pathetic and pitiable, incapable of love, or only finding impossible love; but usually functioning as a care-taker or guide or at worst the comic relief for the straight people in the narrative. These men are usually not explicitly homosexual. Think: Henry James' The American. Rowling has followed this trope, albeit a step up, where Dumbledore has an important career and is the center of the fight against darkness. So all that unused relational energy can be transfered into a career!

So while I understand Rowling's argument that her books are a "prolonged argument for tolerance," and I think she had good intentions, in 2007 we are far beyond the time when a sympathetic gay character should be closeted and sexless (and surely Ian McLellan has proved that older gay men are still vital and sexual). Given where the UK is right now in the integration of gay men and women into British society, this is a step backward. I don't want to be too harsh, here, but ultimately Dumbledore's narrative turns into sycophantism: How do you write a gay character in a children's book without freaking the hell out of their conservative retrograde parents? What would Dumbledore have been like had he had a partner (dead or living), if he'd discussed love with Harry or Hermione at appropriate moments? Would it have undermined his position at the center of Goodness in the book? No. If Rowling's intention is an argument for tolerance, it is a weak whimper of a statement, at least where gay men are concerned.

To be honest, my bets for a gay character were on Sirius. My feeling was that he had been in love with James (Gary Oldman's plunging neckline can't help but throw us back to the go-go gay 1970s). But had Rowling outed Sirius last night, we would have been left in exactly the same conundrum. A lonely, single gay man, loveless and pitiable.


Yeah, my reaction was along the lines of this. He's gay but she never gives a hint of that--at least one that kids would probably pick up on. She reveals it after the whole thing is finished. She never truly makes it part of his character or experience. In fact, the explanation she did give for his intense relationship with Grindelwald was certainly sufficient to explain it, in my opinion. Dumbledore was smarter than pretty much everybody, including Voldemort, who was supposed to be this evil genius. His best friend (Doge) is really more of a worshipper than a peer. He's trapped at home alone taking care of a damaged sister and suddenly this guy shows up who is, finally, his intellectual equal. This is the explanation she actually gives and there's no hint of anything homoerotic or even homo-romantic (if that's a word).

Of course, sexuality isn't really dealt with in the books at all other than some adolescent gropings in the later books, which may be a good call in books for children and adolescents. However, I can't help comparing that to Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy where he has a pair of gay characters (gay angels!) that are openly a couple. He doesn't get into anything explicitly sexual, but they are obviously and clearly homosexual and utterly devoted to one another. If this was the route Rowling was going to go (and it seems clear that she conceived of him as gay from the very beginning) then it seems a bit--timid--to only out him at the end, as an aside, and not at least make it a bit more obvious in the books themselves. The whole thing seems kind of clumsy.

And I hadn't thought of Sirius as a gay character, but I think you're right. She actually makes a better "case" for Sirius as gay, than she does for Dumbledore.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:00 pm 
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cumom wrote:
So while I understand Rowling's argument that her books are a "prolonged argument for tolerance," and I think she had good intentions, in 2007 we are far beyond the time when a sympathetic gay character should be closeted and sexless (and surely Ian McLellan has proved that older gay men are still vital and sexual). Given where the UK is right now in the integration of gay men and women into British society, this is a step backward. I don't want to be too harsh, here, but ultimately Dumbledore's narrative turns into sycophantism: How do you write a gay character in a children's book without freaking the hell out of their conservative retrograde parents? What would Dumbledore have been like had he had a partner (dead or living), if he'd discussed love with Harry or Hermione at appropriate moments? Would it have undermined his position at the center of Goodness in the book? No. If Rowling's intention is an argument for tolerance, it is a weak whimper of a statement, at least where gay men are concerned.

It would have been preachy, boring and puritan. Let me hit you over the head. And just for good measure, lets include safe sex instructions.

May be, Jimmy Carter would have written that book.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:14 pm 
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Well, I'll refer you again to the Pullman series. That relationship is just treated as a natural thing. Nobody comments on it as an item of discussion in and of itself. Nobody makes a big deal of it, especially not the characters themselves. They just play their part in the story, but are clearly depicted as a gay couple.

Now that I'm reconsidering in light of this information, the other thing that strikes me as--well, maybe insidious is too strong a word--but maybe cliched or something, is Dumbledore's obsession with secrecy. Even at the end, when he comes back to talk to Harry and finally "tell him the whole truth," he doesn't cop to the whole truth about Grindelwald. He sticks to that line of "I was brilliant and I was trapped and then Grindelwald came and he was as smart as I was!" He's DEAD, fer Jebus' sake, and he's still in the closet.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:20 pm 
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Dumbledore is GAY ?

next thing you know... He'll be subject to Church Discipline!!

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:38 pm 
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Hellmut wrote:
It would have been preachy, boring and puritan. Let me hit you over the head. And just for good measure, lets include safe sex instructions.

May be, Jimmy Carter would have written that book.

I have to call bullshit on this. Having a normal gay character, fully developed with his life fully integrated into his behavior and motivation would in no way be preachy and puritanical. Was the Weasleys' relationship puritanical? Or even the Malfoys'? No. They were just straight people whose sexuality was integrated into their character development.

I know this isn't what you meant, Hellmut, but this kind of position pushes all my buttons: It smacks of the argument from the "straight but not narrow" crowd where, it's okay for gay people to be around, as long as they aren't *too* gay or as long as they don't "talk about it" or as long as they're not "obviously" gay. It's like the cloaked racists during the 1980s who objected to black characters on TV programs, because they were just "token blacks" and it was "preachy" and "bending to the will of the NAACP."

This is the pressure to cover. Rowling, if she sincerely conceived of Dumbledore as a homosexual from the outset, effectively silenced him, closeting him for the world. And her outing him now having treated his character is she did serves not to inspire tolerance and openness, but to justify the continued efforts of the dominant culture to eschew the various expressions of gayness, including their most intimate and central relationships. It reinforces the idea that the "good gay" is the quiet one who doesn't insert him/herself as a gay person into the consciousness of those around him. A good gay knows his place. In the case of Dumbledore, to care for and educate our children and save us from evil. But don't talk about your loves or relationships or desires! God forbid.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:06 am 
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UPDATE: If Sirius were gay, that would mean that the two primary adult men who take care of Harry as a young man were gay. The horror! Surely, this explains his pouty broodiness in books 5-7, as well as his bad manners and self-absorption and most especially his propensity to flagrantly (flamboyantly?) disregard the rules! I see it now. What Rowling is actually doing is writing a cautionary tale about young men being mentored by homos.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:49 am 
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I have a group of TBM friends, all from the same family that I regularly hang out with. They know and accept that I'm not mormon, and we've had some pretty interesting conversations on religion and the like. That being said, two of them, at separate times, said they thought this was J.K. Rowling pushing back against all of the Christian flak she gets for her "witchcraft" books. That Dumbledore wasn't gay from the beginning, she's just making this decision now to make more waves.

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