Further Light and Knowledge

Warning: controversial views ahead. As if you hadn't guessed.

Fundamentalist religious folk sometimes refer to abortion as "the American holocaust." The word holocaust means an offering burnt and given to God. God invented holocausts. Which got me thinking.

Why do religious people support God? God kills everyone. EVERYONE. Sure, a tiny number of humans also kill in small numbers, but only because God gives them the means - he knew they would kill, yet he still gave them guns. God also kills far more unborn children (mainly in the very early stages of pregnancy) than all the abortionists put together. We cannot overestimate the scale of God's killing. EVERYTHING THAT LIVES IS KILLED. And worse than that, God seems to create new foetuses purely to kill them. Why doesn't he ensure that every foetus makes it to term? It is in his power, but he prefers to create them just to kill them. Creating in order to kill. What a concept!

We are told that "we can't question God" but given the scale of the killing then we SHOULD question him. It is crazy to blame the few people who bring death on a little sooner, when the supreme killer is worshipped.

My point is that religious anti-abortionists cannot be taken seriously, so the debate must be left to others.

Just to clarify my position, nature shows us that death is essential to life. If we want more and better life then we must accept and manage death. If a mother decides she is unfit to have a child, maybe we should believe her. We may scoff at abortion for economic reasons, but economic progress allows more children to be born than ever in the history of the world. Being pro-economics means being pro-life. In short, I accept abortion because I am pro-life.

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I agree with everything ever posted by Hellmut, Philo and Susan D.
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Interesting view, though I would disagree with your statement above. There are purely rational religious people that have fair arguments against abortion. The "God kills everyone" point would be countered by the argument that yes he does, and the killing should be left to God, not people. And with God it's not so much an active killing as it is setting the natural world up and letting it run.

Just showing you the balance to your point.

Are there any arguments that do not also condemn God?


Why?


So it is OK to kill people as long as we automate the process?

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P.S.
I agree with everything ever posted by Hellmut, Philo and Susan D.
...
answers to life's biggest questions

Just to be crystal clear, I'm playing devils advocate here, except that I am pro-life.



Sure, that people killing other people is wrong and that they consider abortion to be murder. God is not a "person" so it doesn't apply to him.



Since he is the creator he is the only one that can stop that creation.



If you're God, yep. Everybody dies, so you can look at it in that God kill people or he sets up the natural process to ensure that everyone dies.

Me too! I think that death is essential to life. God has the right idea. I just don't think people should be condemned for being god-like.

Me too, though not in the anti-abortion sense.

Why is it rational to exclude non-persons? or is God a special case? If so, why?

Why? I think this is the key to it all, but we need to clarify it.

Why is it right for God but wrong for us?

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P.S.
I agree with everything ever posted by Hellmut, Philo and Susan D.
...
answers to life's biggest questions

I think the religious objections on a philisophical basis are well summed up here: http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/19_prolife-philosophy.htm

by Professor Peter Kreeft of Boston College. I think this is perhaps one of the best summations of pro-life philosophy I have ever heard. Whether I agree with it or not is irrelevant.

Thanks. I'll have to wait til tomorrow to listen (it's not a good time right now to have the speakers on). I don't suppose there is a transcript that I missed?

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P.S.
I agree with everything ever posted by Hellmut, Philo and Susan D.
...
answers to life's biggest questions

I've had a look round and I don't see a transcript on his site - sorry!

I don't know carnegis personally, so I have no idea about him as an individual. In other words, I'm not aiming this at carnegis, whom I don't know.

The phrase "pro-life" has always grated on me. Nearly everyone I've ever talked to who is pro-life is not pro-life at all. At best, they are pro-emryonic life. But actually, they're just anti-abortion. When it comes to actual, already-born human beings, they don't give a shit.

Again, not about carnegis. Just a pet peeve of mine.

I agree to a point. There are some religious groups that really are 'pro-life' (it is a dumb phrase).

Both the Anglican & Catholic churches oppose abortion, but at the same time oppose the death penalty so at least unlike the mormon church, which is pro-embryonic life but also pro-blood atonement, the Anglicans and Catholics are consistent in there philosophical position.

I always found the mormon churchs stance on being anti-abortion (a more accurate way to put it) but pro-captial punishment to be apposing to each other. In fact, many Christian organizations have these two seemingly opposing view points.

Understandable If I was to state my opinion, I am anti-abortion (other than certain medical cases) and anti-captical punishment. I know what you're saying though about being saying they are pro-life but really are just anti-abortion.

This topic has been well timed for me. I just git my South Dakota State Ballot through the post. As you may be aware SD is trying to pass the most restrictive anti-abortion laws in the non-taleban world.

Here is the description from the ballot paper:

"House bill 1215 would prohibit any person, at any time, from providing any medicine or other substance to a pregnant woman for the specific purpose of terminating her pregnancy. However, a person may provide a contraception substance to a woman without penalty prior to the time her pregnancy could be detected by conventional medical testing.

HB 1215 would also prohibit any person, any time, from using an instrument or procedure on a pregnant woman for the specific purpose of terminating her pregnancy, unless the person is a licensed physician performing a medical procedure to prevent the death of the pregnant woman."

What it does not say there is that this measure would also make it illegal to cross state lines with the intention of seeking an abortion. The ballot goes on to say:

"If approved HB1215 will likely be challenged in court and may be declared in violition of the US Constitution"

I also along with the ballot got some propaganda from an anti abortion group.

Guess how I voted??

Congratulations on a clever argument, Faraday.

God is allowed to kill and humans are not because God and humans are not the same.

Conceptually, the difference between God and mortals is that God has a greater capacity. God knows, humans are ignorant. Therefore death is a prerogative of God that humans should not share.

Humans may wish to bring about justice. Sometimes they are unable to do so. God does not suffer from these limitations. Hence we can entrust killing to God but not to humans. God will not accidentally kill the wrong person. People do that all the time.

It gets more complicated once we start holding God accountable for the actions of humans. One quickly encounters paradoxi. It's all very mysterious . . . However, these problems do not arise if one does not assume that God is omnipotent.

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Actually the problem goes away when you get over the god delusion altogether. Who gives a crap what some fairy-tale, mythical nonexistant being would or can do? It has nothing to do with human morality. Falling back on god to make moral claims is a refusal to engage in the real world and make rational arguments for your moral positions.

Hrmph.