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figaro
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 Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: |
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Two terms on City Council, two terms as mayor. Two years as Ethics Commissioner, two years as Governor. That is a more executive experience than Obama has. She has actually accomplished things--ethics reforms, budget reforms, energy policy. What has Obama done, besides give pretty speeches?
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KingM
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Sarah Palin |
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[quote="figaro"] | Equality wrote: |
| Quote: | In an interview Thursday, Palin said she meant only to say that discussion of alternative views should be allowed to arise in Alaska classrooms:
"I don't think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn't have to be part of the curriculum."
She added that, if elected, she would not push the state Board of Education to add such creation-based alternatives to the state's required curriculum.
Members of the state school board, which sets minimum requirements, are appointed by the governor and confirmed by the Legislature.
"I won't have religion as a litmus test, or anybody's personal opinion on evolution or creationism," Palin said. |
I don't know. She sounds reasonable. She isn't trying to exclude evolution. |
You're not serious, are you? What kind of alternate views are there? Does discussion of the Navajo creation myth belong in science classes, too? While we're at it, let's toss Book of Mormon studies into our history classes as an alternate "theory" to the settling of the Americas. |
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KingM
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| figaro wrote: | | What has Obama done, besides give pretty speeches? |
He was...uhm...a community organizer. Yeah, that. |
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figaro
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| KingM wrote: | | figaro wrote: | | What has Obama done, besides give pretty speeches? |
He was...uhm...a community organizer. Yeah, that. |
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Equality
Equality for Sexy Nuns
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:52 am Post subject: Re: Sarah Palin |
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| figaro wrote: | | Sophocles wrote: | With this choice, McCain can't really nail Obama on youth or lack of experience any more. He's throwing up his hands and saying if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. He's also admitting that he couldn't have any of his preferred picks, because they aren't pro-life and he has to rally the EVs to stand a chance.
I will say this. If McCain wins, and Palin runs as the incumbent in 2016, she is going to look really good at 52 compared to Hillary at 68. |
She has more experience than Obama. And she is the Veep Candidate. |
She's been governor of the 47th largest state for a year and a half. How do you figure she has more experience?
On the evolution thing, if someone suggests teaching the Flat Earth theory next to the "Spherical Earth" theory should it be allowed? How about the "Apollo pulls the sun across the sky in a chariot" theory next to the Copernican theory? How about the "1+1=5" theory next to the "1+1=2" theory? You know, just put the information and controversy out there and let kids figure it out.
Where scientists are engaged in a true debate over differing theories on things that involve legitimate scientific disputes based on incomplete information (like whether the Higgs Boson particle exists), then a discussion of alternate views and their scientific bases ought to be encouraged. But when religious ideas wearing the cloak of science are involved, forget it! Or should we let the Scientologists into the classroom to talk about their theories about Thetans?
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Epstein
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| figaro wrote: | | Two terms on City Council, two terms as mayor. Two years as Ethics Commissioner, two years as Governor. That is a more executive experience than Obama has. |
Hey, that is more executive experience than McCain has! I'm totally convinced. |
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figaro
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: Re: Sarah Palin |
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[quote="KingM"] | figaro wrote: | | Equality wrote: |
| Quote: | In an interview Thursday, Palin said she meant only to say that discussion of alternative views should be allowed to arise in Alaska classrooms:
"I don't think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn't have to be part of the curriculum."
She added that, if elected, she would not push the state Board of Education to add such creation-based alternatives to the state's required curriculum.
Members of the state school board, which sets minimum requirements, are appointed by the governor and confirmed by the Legislature.
"I won't have religion as a litmus test, or anybody's personal opinion on evolution or creationism," Palin said. |
I don't know. She sounds reasonable. She isn't trying to exclude evolution. |
You're not serious, are you? What kind of alternate views are there? Does discussion of the Navajo creation myth belong in science classes, too? While we're at it, let's toss Book of Mormon studies into our history classes as an alternate "theory" to the settling of the Americas. |
I am serious. What I get from this is that she respects religious views and doesn't think they should be totally inadmissable. I don't advocate teaching Genesis as a literal story, or that scientific evidence should be downplayed or disregarded. I do think Creation stories, whether they be Jewish or Navajo or whatever, can be brought up in a classroom and can be instructive.
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Equality
Equality for Sexy Nuns
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
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Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| figaro wrote: | | Two terms on City Council, two terms as mayor. Two years as Ethics Commissioner, two years as Governor. That is a more executive experience than Obama has. She has actually accomplished things--ethics reforms, budget reforms, energy policy. What has Obama done, besides give pretty speeches? |
Wow. Two years as Ethics Commissioner. Is that where she learned all about "plausible deniability"? Let's see. Governor's sister has nasty divorce. Ex-husband is a state trooper. Governor pulls the strings of power to get said trooper fired. You're right, she sounds like she took Ethics from Karl Rove, Alberto Gonzalez, and Dick Cheney.
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cumom
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| figaro wrote: | | KingM wrote: | | figaro wrote: | | What has Obama done, besides give pretty speeches? |
He was...uhm...a community organizer. Yeah, that. |
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He was elected to the Illinois legislature in 1996 and has been serving ever since; and has federal experience. I fail to see how the experience discussion gives any real idea at all about someone's qualifications for the presidency. Give me FDR (virtually no experience) any day over George HW Bush (a lifetime of experience).
Experience is a red herring. |
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KingM
Election Made Sure
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:57 am Post subject: Re: Sarah Palin |
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| Equality wrote: |
Where scientists are engaged in a true debate over differing theories on things that involve legitimate scientific disputes based on incomplete information (like whether the Higgs Boson particle exists), then a discussion of alternate views and their scientific bases ought to be encouraged. But when religious ideas wearing the cloak of science are involved, forget it! Or should we let the Scientologists into the classroom to talk about their theories about Thetans? |
The bottom line for me is not the silly stuff about giving equal time, as you've nicely punctured, but that it's almost certain that she's a creationist herself. When she refuses to acknowledge the certainty that humans evolved from lower life forms because it conflicts with her pre-existing beliefs, how flexible is she going to be on issues such as climate change, energy limitations, failure of market-based solutions, etc.?
These are all subjects that have no easy answer and yet it is absolutely critical to be open-minded enough to consider evidence that may be contrary to your previously held convictions. Our very existence as a nation may depend upon changing the course we have followed for the last sixty years. |
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Equality
Equality for Sexy Nuns
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
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Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Sarah Palin |
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[quote="figaro"] | KingM wrote: | | figaro wrote: | | Equality wrote: |
| Quote: | In an interview Thursday, Palin said she meant only to say that discussion of alternative views should be allowed to arise in Alaska classrooms:
"I don't think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn't have to be part of the curriculum."
She added that, if elected, she would not push the state Board of Education to add such creation-based alternatives to the state's required curriculum.
Members of the state school board, which sets minimum requirements, are appointed by the governor and confirmed by the Legislature.
"I won't have religion as a litmus test, or anybody's personal opinion on evolution or creationism," Palin said. |
I don't know. She sounds reasonable. She isn't trying to exclude evolution. |
You're not serious, are you? What kind of alternate views are there? Does discussion of the Navajo creation myth belong in science classes, too? While we're at it, let's toss Book of Mormon studies into our history classes as an alternate "theory" to the settling of the Americas. |
I am serious. What I get from this is that she respects religious views and doesn't think they should be totally inadmissable. I don't advocate teaching Genesis as a literal story, or that scientific evidence should be downplayed or disregarded. I do think Creation stories, whether they be Jewish or Navajo or whatever, can be brought up in a classroom and can be instructive. |
That's not the debate and you know it, fig. Yes, creation myths can be, and are, taught in public schools. In humanities (or social studies) or literature classes, where they belong. The debate is over whether religious ideas packaged up with a "science" label ought to be taught in science classes.
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cumom
Election Made Sure
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Sarah Palin |
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[quote="figaro"] | KingM wrote: | | figaro wrote: | | Equality wrote: |
| Quote: | In an interview Thursday, Palin said she meant only to say that discussion of alternative views should be allowed to arise in Alaska classrooms:
"I don't think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn't have to be part of the curriculum."
She added that, if elected, she would not push the state Board of Education to add such creation-based alternatives to the state's required curriculum.
Members of the state school board, which sets minimum requirements, are appointed by the governor and confirmed by the Legislature.
"I won't have religion as a litmus test, or anybody's personal opinion on evolution or creationism," Palin said. |
I don't know. She sounds reasonable. She isn't trying to exclude evolution. |
You're not serious, are you? What kind of alternate views are there? Does discussion of the Navajo creation myth belong in science classes, too? While we're at it, let's toss Book of Mormon studies into our history classes as an alternate "theory" to the settling of the Americas. |
I am serious. What I get from this is that she respects religious views and doesn't think they should be totally inadmissable. I don't advocate teaching Genesis as a literal story, or that scientific evidence should be downplayed or disregarded. I do think Creation stories, whether they be Jewish or Navajo or whatever, can be brought up in a classroom and can be instructive. |
In a *science* classroom, as plausible explanations for the origins of the universe?
And what the fuck is "respect" for religions anyway? The only thing religions deserve or need is a) noninterference by the government in matters of worship; b) nondiscrimination in employment and public accommdation and citizenship. that's it.
By the way, I laugh every time a religionist (not talking about Fig here) argues taht gays and lesbians shouldn't have protection because it's a lifestyle choice, all the while ignorant of the fact that "religion" is a protected lifestyle choice category in the 1964 civil rights act. Morons.
ETA: Religious *ideas* are not worthy or deserving of any more respect than any other kind of idea. They are and must remain open to testing, critique, ridicule, and derision. The problem I see with her creationism isn't that it's religious, but that like all pro-creation-in-schools advocates, she wants her ideas to be taught as equal to the tested, evidentiated, vetted arguments of science. Should not, must not, happen.
And total agreement with KingM about the kind of thinking required to be open-minded: It means holding your knowledge in solution, true but only provisionally, ready to change it in the face of evidence (the very definition of a scientific mindset).
Last edited by cumom on Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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figaro
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Sarah Palin |
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| Equality wrote: |
On the evolution thing, if someone suggests teaching the Flat Earth theory next to the "Spherical Earth" theory should it be allowed? How about the "Apollo pulls the sun across the sky in a chariot" theory next to the Copernican theory? How about the "1+1=5" theory next to the "1+1=2" theory? You know, just put the information and controversy out there and let kids figure it out.
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Actually that approach sound appropriate for kids of a certain age. Let them use Occam's Razor and the Scientific method and learn to think.
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KingM
Election Made Sure
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| cumom wrote: | He was elected to the Illinois legislature in 1996 and has been serving ever since; and has federal experience. I fail to see how the experience discussion gives any real idea at all about someone's qualifications for the presidency. Give me FDR (virtually no experience) any day over George HW Bush (a lifetime of experience).
Experience is a red herring. |
I believe that FDR had been in politics for two decades before his election. He'd been in the NY State Senate, then assistant Secretary of the Navy, and finally served as governor of NY before his election. FWIW, I think a big state governor is probably the experience that most closely resembles the presidency.
Having said that, I think the experience thing can be a red herring, too. On paper, George Bush now has eight years of experience in the White House, but what has he learned? In fact, I'd say he has one year of experience, repeated eight times, where he insists on making the same dumb mistakes again and again.
In short, I wouldn't vote for the guy for town dogcatcher. I'm pretty sure that he'd fuck it up. |
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Equality
Equality for Sexy Nuns
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 4093
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| cumom wrote: | | figaro wrote: | | KingM wrote: | | figaro wrote: | | What has Obama done, besides give pretty speeches? |
He was...uhm...a community organizer. Yeah, that. |
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He was elected to the Illinois legislature in 1996 and has been serving ever since; and has federal experience. I fail to see how the experience discussion gives any real idea at all about someone's qualifications for the presidency. Give me FDR (virtually no experience) any day over George HW Bush (a lifetime of experience).
Experience is a red herring. |
I agree. The knock on Reagan in the primaries both in 76 and 80 was that he had no experience, compared to Bush and Baker. And of course Gore had lots more experience than Dubya. It's a stupid argument. Experience running in a campaign, though, is a matter of practical importance and shows McCain's desperation with this pick. Her lack of experience in a Pres. campaign will be a huge liability. Just watch and wait.
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