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Lola-Cola
Libation du Jour
Joined: 07 Sep 2008
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Location: Seattle
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 Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:01 pm Post subject: There is NO "true God" |
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(yes, it's an atheist propaganda thread! yum!)
Cumom's thread on the book "Does God Hate Women" reminds me that so many folks want to believe that god is still worth having as long as we get rid of the human biases and misconceptions. But isn't this argument just an iteration on the "no true Scotsman" fallacy?
No true god would think this. No true god would do that. No true god would be less than perfect -- whatever that subjective mindfuck might be. No true god ________ (fill-in your ideas here).
In my mind, here's the thing: take away everything that people think is necessary in order to believe in a god and what do you have? Why would you worship it? Why would you care? Why would you call it "God" and not something else like "nature" or "mystery" or "the Universe?"
There is no "true God," there is only shit that people think needs to be propped-up as unassailable. Perhaps the central shitty thing: that each individual is the center of the universe and that what they are doing and thinking is utterly relevant and meaningful and, well, universal.
Belief in god is the fucking most selfish thing you can do, and maybe the most natural thing too. Is it any wonder that all this belief sees is selfishness in others?
Bitchy-Lola out.
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Reuben
Election Made Sure
Joined: 02 May 2009
Posts: 683
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: There is NO "true God" |
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| Lola-Cola wrote: | (yes, it's an atheist propaganda thread! yum!)
Cumom's thread on the book "Does God Hate Women" reminds me that so many folks want to believe that god is still worth having as long as we get rid of the human biases and misconceptions. But isn't this argument just an iteration on the "no true Scotsman" fallacy?
No true god would think this. No true god would do that. No true god would be less than perfect -- whatever that subjective mindfuck might be. No true god ________ (fill-in your ideas here).
In my mind, here's the thing: take away everything that people think is necessary in order to believe in a god and what do you have? Why would you worship it? Why would you care? Why would you call it "God" and not something else like "nature" or "mystery" or "the Universe?"
There is no "true God," there is only shit that people think needs to be propped-up as unassailable. Perhaps the central shitty thing: that each individual is the center of the universe and that what they are doing and thinking is utterly relevant and meaningful and, well, universal.
Belief in god is the fucking most selfish thing you can do, and maybe the most natural thing too. Is it any wonder that all this belief sees is selfishness in others?
Bitchy-Lola out. |
well put. however, I think people loooooove to be right. and believing in the "true god" allows them to be right all the time without having to really prove it. ALthough, I guess that is your point about beliving in god is the most selfish thing you can do. Fuck god, and all his bullshit minnions. Any god who is as irrational as the christian god is worth avoiding, even if it means spending an eternity in hell.
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Lola-Cola
Libation du Jour
Joined: 07 Sep 2008
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, exactly. Reuben, I'm all for occupying hell. Let's go. It'll be fun.
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jbsaxman
Recently Un-Mormon-ed
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| Lola-Cola wrote: | | Yes, exactly. Reuben, I'm all for occupying hell. Let's go. It'll be fun. |
That's where the party. Let's BBQ. You bring the liquor, I'll bring the women. 
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If Joseph Smith had been a true prophet, he would have told his followers that they could save a ton of money on their car insurance by switching to GEICO!!
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MagicCicero
Save me, Jebus!
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 2726
Location: Wherever forbidden donuts are sold
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:50 am Post subject: Re: There is NO "true God" |
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| Lola-Cola wrote: | (yes, it's an atheist propaganda thread! yum!)
Cumom's thread on the book "Does God Hate Women" reminds me that so many folks want to believe that god is still worth having as long as we get rid of the human biases and misconceptions. But isn't this argument just an iteration on the "no true Scotsman" fallacy?
No true god would think this. No true god would do that. No true god would be less than perfect -- whatever that subjective mindfuck might be. No true god ________ (fill-in your ideas here).
In my mind, here's the thing: take away everything that people think is necessary in order to believe in a god and what do you have? Why would you worship it? Why would you care? Why would you call it "God" and not something else like "nature" or "mystery" or "the Universe?"
There is no "true God," there is only shit that people think needs to be propped-up as unassailable. Perhaps the central shitty thing: that each individual is the center of the universe and that what they are doing and thinking is utterly relevant and meaningful and, well, universal.
Belief in god is the fucking most selfish thing you can do, and maybe the most natural thing too. Is it any wonder that all this belief sees is selfishness in others?
Bitchy-Lola out. |
Oh, there you atheists go again, being all militant and angry. Don't you understand that if atheists don't cuddle up to the religionists and stop criticizing the nice religions, you just come across as mean-spirited jerks who want to take away other people's comforting beliefs?
[/sarcasm]
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GhostPuma
Election Made Sure
Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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Location: Can't, there're watching!
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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I just finished a great weekend camping trip and I now worship the mountains and lakes for they have truly blessed me (and they really exist). If there is a 'God' why the hell did he create the mosquito? What are they for? 
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brailsmt
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Joined: 21 Jun 2009
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Location: Zion (Jackson County, MO)
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Lola-Cola wrote: | | Yes, exactly. Reuben, I'm all for occupying hell. Let's go. It'll be fun. |
I've got the marshmallows to roast in the fires of hellfire and brimstone.
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rockout
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Joined: 10 Jul 2009
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: There is NO "true God" |
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| Lola-Cola wrote: | There is no "true God," there is only shit that people think needs to be propped-up as unassailable. Perhaps the central shitty thing: that each individual is the center of the universe and that what they are doing and thinking is utterly relevant and meaningful and, well, universal.
Belief in god is the fucking most selfish thing you can do, and maybe the most natural thing too. Is it any wonder that all this belief sees is selfishness in others? |
I think you're right with respect to the way most people think about god, especially in TSCC. But I think a conclusive "there is no god at all" viewpoint is comparable to religion itself. There is no irrefutable evidence to support that there is or isn't a god. That's the problem IMO. It is slightly possible that a higher intelligence is involved here in a way that nobody currently understands. Did I mention that I'm agnostic? |
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brailsmt
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Location: Zion (Jackson County, MO)
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: There is NO "true God" |
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| rockout wrote: | | There is no irrefutable evidence to support that there is or isn't a god. |
How does one gather evidence of something that doesn't exist? Can you provide me evidence that is irrefutable that there is no teapot orbiting the sun? Or how about irrefutable evidence that celestialized humans live on the sun's surface? Or irrefutable evidence that there is no Santa Claus? ad infinitum.
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Subversive Asset 2.0
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Location: Lawton, OK or College Station, TX
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: There is NO "true God" |
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| brailsmt wrote: | | rockout wrote: | | There is no irrefutable evidence to support that there is or isn't a god. |
How does one gather evidence of something that doesn't exist? Can you provide me evidence that is irrefutable that there is no teapot orbiting the sun? Or how about irrefutable evidence that celestialized humans live on the sun's surface? Or irrefutable evidence that there is no Santa Claus? ad infinitum. |
To show something doesn't exist, you show it to be a logical impossibility (or something like that).
However, with the things you mentioned, indeed, we have nothing to say that these things don't exist. Rather, we simply have no reason to believe they do exist. So, this is why I think weak atheism (lacking a belief in gods' existence...or otherwise stated as "I do not believe god/s exist/s") is more tenable than strong atheism (having a belief that gods do not exist...or otherwise stated as, "I believe god/s do/es not exist").
I think this is consistent. Russell's point, for example, was never to show that we should say, "The celestial teapot doesn't exist." He simply pointed out that we have no rational reason to believe it does.
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Lola-Cola
Libation du Jour
Joined: 07 Sep 2008
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Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, rockout. Yeah, I understand the temptation to affiliate religious conviction with anti-religious conviction. I think brialsmt (dude, don't forget the 'smores!) answers the concern very well. As an atheist I believe in living by the odds. And when the odds are along the lines of virtually no evidence for theism and mounting piles of evidence against -- well, at some point you just gotta say "I'm going with the winner."
JB, you know how to party. See what I mean? Hell will rock and heaven will roll.
GP, yeah! Fuck god for creating the mosquito. Or, better yet, let it be a lesson to all that creationism by a loving creator just ain't so simple an explanation.
And EmCee, you da bomb. No warm fuzzies toward the religionist perspective from this atheist. Against all protest I refuse to let them feel comfortable for one moment. Call it hard love. 
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rockout
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: There is NO "true God" |
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| brailsmt wrote: | | How does one gather evidence of something that doesn't exist? Can you provide me evidence that is irrefutable that there is no teapot orbiting the sun? Or how about irrefutable evidence that celestialized humans live on the sun's surface? Or irrefutable evidence that there is no Santa Claus? ad infinitum. |
Santa Clause is easy. Satellite imagery of the North Pole would reveal whether he had a house and gigantic toy workshop there. As for the teapot, I'm not a scientist but I'm pretty sure it would melt immediately if it even got close to the sun (an expert witness could establish this). But where you got me is celestialized humans. We have no way to measure celestial material, detect it, or even know if it is something to detect. Even though it most likely isn't, there is always the slight possibility it is. I won't believe it until I see evidence of it, but won't rule out the possibility that the evidence does exist. I don't think we should rule out the possibility that there is shit going on that we don't understand. |
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brailsmt
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Joined: 21 Jun 2009
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Location: Zion (Jackson County, MO)
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: There is NO "true God" |
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| rockout wrote: | | brailsmt wrote: | | How does one gather evidence of something that doesn't exist? Can you provide me evidence that is irrefutable that there is no teapot orbiting the sun? Or how about irrefutable evidence that celestialized humans live on the sun's surface? Or irrefutable evidence that there is no Santa Claus? ad infinitum. |
Santa Clause is easy. Satellite imagery of the North Pole would reveal whether he had a house and gigantic toy workshop there. |
Unless of course, Santa had the cloaking device running.
| rockout wrote: | | As for the teapot, I'm not a scientist but I'm pretty sure it would melt immediately if it even got close to the sun (an expert witness could establish this). |
Unless of course it's orbitting somewhere between Jupiter and Uranus at an extremely high velocity.
| rockout wrote: | | I don't think we should rule out the possibility that there is shit going on that we don't understand. |
I think we shouldn't equate that which we don't understand yet with the possibility that there is a god.
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rockout
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: There is NO "true God" |
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| brailsmt wrote: | | I think we shouldn't equate that which we don't understand yet with the possibility that there is a god. |
I don't either.
As for the rest, you just made my point. It is possible that there is a Santa Clause. It is possible that there is a teapot orbiting the sun. It is possible that there is evidence to prove it. Probably not, but it is possible. The point is that it seems to be a bit closed minded to conclusively preclude all possibilities. The arrogance is similar to proclaiming to have the "full knowledge of the truth." |
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Goldarn
PAY LAY LOL
Joined: 18 Feb 2009
Posts: 3065
Location: Nearby Ripliancum
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: There is NO "true God" |
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| brailsmt wrote: | | I think we shouldn't equate that which we don't understand yet with the possibility that there is a god. |
Of course there's a God. In fact, there's a whole lot of gods. They spend most of their time near Saturn, drinking tea when the teapot comes by. They don't answer prayers or anything like that. I'm not ever sure they know we humans are here. It's probably for the best -- what if they found out we had tea?
Seriously, when people ask "is there a God?" they generally mean something totally different than the ancient Greeks did, or the ancient Egyptians, or the UFO cults. Until people define "God," it's just one of those words like "Family Values" -- it means different things depending on who says it.
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